Etiquette - drafting strangers

macalu · Jun 8, 2004

spankdoggie said:
This thread is getting a little bit heated. ...

... Cute "dog photo time" to heal the wounds and calm the nerves.

Enjoy!

Cute hell, that monkeys got that poor puppy in a killer headlock. What kind of monster are you?

Kram · Jun 8, 2004

That explains a lot.

philippec said:
Owen is right -- at least for France. Any wheel is fair game and you should expect spontaneous drafts at any moment. That said, most people here have excellent group/paceline skills and thus the rookie draft/safety issue is rarely a problem... now when I lived in the States, that certainly wasn't true...

A+

Philippe

When I rode in France last year with my brother in law, we were cruising up a nice grade when I realized that we had another rider tagging along. I didn't really mind, but after a while I figured that if he was going to hop on, he'd better be ready to take a pull! Long story short, he tried to drop me; couldn't, so we rod together to the next water fountain, where he asked if we were riding to the top and could he ride with us?

Here in the States, though, I'd never hop on to the back of a stranger/s for a pull, unless I asked.....

treebound · Jun 8, 2004

depends

If you grab a wheel with permission then you are drafting.
If you grab a wheel without permission then you are tailgating.

When I'm riding solo I'll vary my speed, if I want to stretch a leg I'll stop pedaling for a moment and straighten it out. If someone is tailgating me without my knowing it then we will have a collision. If I know someone is behind me I ride one way, if I think nobody is behind me then I may stop suddenly to pickup a wrench I see laying on the shoulder of the roadway.

At the very least, ask before hitching a ride.
And I guess if I ever get the chance to ride in France I'll just have to pay more attention to my mirrors.

PMC · Jun 8, 2004

Cool Roadie nom de Plume said:
They guy in front of me seems to be a bit of a Fred (he has a seat bag) pulls out and takes the lead.

The guy now in front of me, who seems quite a roadie (he has no seat bag) gets annoyed with me, waves at me a couple of times and then sprints off into the distance. I contunue to draft the other Fred for another couple of miles until our paths dicerge.

Note to self - ditch the seat bag or "Tool Roadie nom de Plume" will think I'm a Fred when he tries to hold my wheel on his MTB. You really don't need spare tubes or any of that stuff if you're a real roadie...

Troll
Troll
Troll
Troll

Spinfinity · Jun 8, 2004

I'm with you, dog.

I'm pretty slow these days, but anybody who wants to hang on my wheel is welcome to it. Glad to help fellow riders when I can. When I pull off, I expect them to take their turn. If they don't, I try to drop them. Whether I can or not is no big deal. If they don't seem to understand what it means when I move left and slow down, I explain it to them. I want to encourage people to form pace lines - I need 'em.

While being passed, I usually ask if it's ok to hop on, but sometimes I just do it, especially if it's clear that I'll soon be dropped anyway.

terry b · Jun 8, 2004

If people ask, I don't mind. If people don't ask, particularly when I've just passed them I don't like it. Simple.

Saw an interesting event the other day. I was taking a short break feeding cookies to the ancient horse at the end of the MUT when along comes a guy I'll call Local Pro. Local Pro actually has a name that many of you would recognize and he's a nice enough guy. I've had a couple of ad hoc rides with him as he lives in my village and we run into each other on occasion. This day though, he nodded and went past, riding pretty slowly.

I finished feeding the horse and took off in the same direction, slowly catching up to Local Pro. I stayed a long way back despite the fact that he was noodling along at a much slower speed than I had planned. I was turning off in a couple of miles or so and figured "why bother?"

About this time along comes a rider I call The Citizen. He's riding a nice enough bike, not wearing a helmet, using head phones and riding like a bat out of hell. Citizens are often on the MUT and they ride the way I did when I first took up road biking - drive to the parking lot at the north end of the MUT, ride as fast as one can to the end and then turn around and head back equally as fast. The trip is then ended by sitting in the car in the lot and coughing up a lung.

The Citizen blows by me and then by Local Pro. Local Pro stops noodling and gets on the Citizens wheel. The Citizen keeps going full bore, Local Pro has no porblem hanging. I've now upped my pace, since this is very entertaining, staying about 100 feet back though. The Citizen sits up, Local Pro sits up. The Citizen hunkers down, Local Pro hunkers down. This goes on and on for the next mile or so until I turned off. Made me think of a cat playing with a half dead bird. Also reminded me of something Doug Sloan once said in a discussion similar to this - "if you can't ride the sucker off your wheel, too bad for you."

Well, there was no way The Citizen was going to ride Local Pro off his wheel. I can't say if he was having fun or not, but it sure didn't look like it to me. Point is, we should all respect other riders and ask if they want to ride as a pair. We shouldn't assume they want company, we shouldn't assume they even know we're there unless we talk to them. It's simply about common courtesy.

MShaw · Jun 8, 2004

treebound said:
If I know someone is behind me I ride one way, if I think nobody is behind me then I may stop suddenly to pickup a wrench I see laying on the shoulder of the roadway.

At the very least, ask before hitching a ride.

You should always check your 6 if you're planning on doing something abrupt. You just never know...

Re: drafting. If you don't ask if its OK, don't do it. "Hey guys, mind if I sh!thook?" If they don't know what a sh!thook is, then you know more than they do and you're OK.

HTH,

M

Charlie Amerique · Jun 8, 2004

You did nothing, and everything, wrong

The issue is never about "did you do right or wrong" but rather about how you are beign percieved by those around you. In this case, since you have already judged people as "freds" and such by the use of saddle bags and so on, then why do you care what they think?

From my own perspective, I commut from downtome Montreal to west of the west island (about 50km each way) along the Lachine Canal. The first 20% is o nthe canal trail where I usually cruise up a bit to warm the legs. It's a MUT so moving at "ramming speed" is no cool.
Since "my thing" is to move at a steady pace for the entire ride, I often get people drafting off me. For the early part of the year, it's not likely to happen (fair-weather riders and al lthat), but as the season progresses, it becomes more frequent.
At first I was unhappy with this, feeling like I was the one doing all the work, but after this happened a couple of times I just started to blow it off. It doesn't matter to me. I'm out riding for myself and if someone else wants a free ride, that's his (or her) business. They usually cant' hang much more than 2 km anyway.

Once on the road, it's a different story. I race the cars through the little towns along the lakeshore and rarely lose (they find the need to travel 60kph in a 30 zone just to get ahead of me, but those pesky stopsigns are waiting just ahead.. he he).

If someone wants to draft, fine... just don't pretend I'm your "leadout man" when we come to the intersection where you leave the route... oh, and don't complain if I ride through a little water. That prokit could use a little toning-down.

CA

treebound · Jun 8, 2004

yep

MShaw said:
You should always check your 6 if you're planning on doing something abrupt. You just never know...

Yep, usually do anyway, learned from motorcycles and bicycles, but sometimes they'll sneak up on ya.

Mel Erickson · Jun 8, 2004

Can you be a "roadie" if you're riding a MUT?

OokieCookie · Jun 8, 2004

Funny, you guys who mentioned the LA area thing. I always thought drafting w/o asking was like the ultimate roadie sin until I came to southern cal. Out on Santiago Canyon in orange county it seems like every solo rider I pass has to immediately pull up on my @ss and start drafting. A couple have been cool, taking pulls and everything, but quite a few either try to be all tough-guy and drop me, or just hang off my butt for forever. They wont even make eye contact when I look back at them. Crazy.

MShaw · Jun 8, 2004

OokieCookie said:
Funny, you guys who mentioned the LA area thing. I always thought drafting w/o asking was like the ultimate roadie sin until I came to southern cal. Out on Santiago Canyon in orange county it seems like every solo rider I pass has to immediately pull up on my @ss and start drafting. A couple have been cool, taking pulls and everything, but quite a few either try to be all tough-guy and drop me, or just hang off my butt for forever. They wont even make eye contact when I look back at them. Crazy.

I get some of that here in San Diego too. Seems worst over on the coast...

The funniest things I've ever seen are guys that come roaring by me, get 50-100m ahead, then slow down. Its like they've caught me, now they don't know what to do...

If there's a group riding just faster than my toodle pace, I'll ask if its OK to jump on the back. I try and stay off the front and out of the way as much as possible. I can move quicker drafting at the same effort level AND have someone to talk to!

M

SteveD · Jun 8, 2004

Drafting vs. Tailgating... This is the best, most precise answer...

treebound said:
If you grab a wheel with permission then you are drafting.
If you grab a wheel without permission then you are tailgating.

When I'm riding solo I'll vary my speed, if I want to stretch a leg I'll stop pedaling for a moment and straighten it out. If someone is tailgating me without my knowing it then we will have a collision. If I know someone is behind me I ride one way, if I think nobody is behind me then I may stop suddenly to pickup a wrench I see laying on the shoulder of the roadway.

At the very least, ask before hitching a ride.
And I guess if I ever get the chance to ride in France I'll just have to pay more attention to my mirrors.

I like this explanation. Nice job.

shawnbbrad · Jun 8, 2004

In a Similar Vein...

I've been wondering about a somewhat analogous situation ever since it occurred a few months back. Would be grateful if the etiquette czars could weigh in:

When a group is taking up the road, whose responsibility is it to spread word of a passing rider; the groups', or the passing rider--to each successive individual within the group?

CASE IN POINT: Coming down a local long technical descent, on a generous-width road, I come up on a slower group of team-kit roadies, comfortably descending down the middle of our one lane. They were keeping a quite mild pace, which I did not look forward to limiting myself to for the entire (fun and challenging) descent.

I hung back 3-5 bike lengths--more at some corners--finally moving forward a bit to announce myself to the rear-most member of the group, then retreating.

After a bit, she pulls slightly toward the shoulder, waving me through. I yell (through the wind) "Thank you very much!" smiling and nodding, and move onward behind the next rider (3-5 bike lengths), who by this point is 25 yards up the road. This time I don't announce myself. Neither he nor other riders are moving over or waving me through, so I find myself waiting until clear spots appear in the road, then announcing my pass beforehand and thanking each rider individually as I clear them. Process repeats until I am clear of the group and I can continue at my own pace.

At the base of the descent, I stop and pull out a Powerbar to munch. The group eventually rolls up, at which point the lead rider chastises me for unsafe conduct.

I hear him out, but am unable to agree with him:
HIS POINT: It's unsafe to ride up on other cyclists unless you know them, and more specifically, it's unsafe to approach--and especially pass--anyone on a descent.
MY POINT: If you're riding in a group, the group has the responsibility to communicate within itself new and evolving conditions: "Car back" or "Rider on", or whatever. My sense of etiquette says that after my initial announcement, the group should have telegraphed up the line my presence--"Faster rider back"--and decided on a collective strategy--"Hang right, let him through." They didn't, and I was forced to adopt the best and safest strategy I could muster under the conditions. Neverthess, the initial error, I felt, was a failure of group etiquette, and it was theirs.

Yes? No? Any better way to handle this in general?

terzo rene · Jun 8, 2004

That may be a cute dog but the monkey looks depressed as hell.

I can't believe anyone cares about somebody drafting them. It's a compliment if anything. I do try to warn them that my eyes are that good so they shouldn't trust me to pick a clean path through the debris. I really don't care whether they stay behind, take pulls or drop me like a rock. I just don't want to feel responsible if they flat or crash from drafting a blind guy.

Dctrofspin · Jun 8, 2004

Agree. It's irritating when you come up on someone who's riding a couple to several mph slower than you, pass them, and then have them sit on without saying anything. When it happens, I usually won't say anything, I'll just speed up and drop them.

bimini · Jun 8, 2004

The proper way to pass a group on a down hill

Is to hang back and wait for a big honking SUV to pass. Something with good big windows. Sprint up to highway speed and zip in behind the SUV and draft it down the hill while you fly by the pack of roadies at 55-60 MPH. Keep enough distance so you can brake in time but still see through the windows of the SUV so you can anticipate the drivers reactions. Sure, its dangerous, but you only live once.

Then when you are down at the bottom of the hill munching on the energy bar while getting chastized for your dangerous stunt. You will be in a position to agree. Just say, "Yeah, F%&%en dangerous, WOW, what a Rush!, Let's do it again"

Actually, I doubt if they would even stop to chastize you after that stunt.

shawnbbrad said:
I've been wondering about a somewhat analogous situation ever since it occurred a few months back. Would be grateful if the etiquette czars could weigh in:

When a group is taking up the road, whose responsibility is it to spread word of a passing rider; the groups', or the passing rider--to each successive individual within the group?

CASE IN POINT: Coming down a local long technical descent, on a generous-width road, I come up on a slower group of team-kit roadies, comfortably descending down the middle of our one lane. They were keeping a quite mild pace, which I did not look forward to limiting myself to for the entire (fun and challenging) descent.

I hung back 3-5 bike lengths--more at some corners--finally moving forward a bit to announce myself to the rear-most member of the group, then retreating.

After a bit, she pulls slightly toward the shoulder, waving me through. I yell (through the wind) "Thank you very much!" smiling and nodding, and move onward behind the next rider (3-5 bike lengths), who by this point is 25 yards up the road. This time I don't announce myself. Neither he nor other riders are moving over or waving me through, so I find myself waiting until clear spots appear in the road, then announcing my pass beforehand and thanking each rider individually as I clear them. Process repeats until I am clear of the group and I can continue at my own pace.

At the base of the descent, I stop and pull out a Powerbar to munch. The group eventually rolls up, at which point the lead rider chastises me for unsafe conduct.

I hear him out, but am unable to agree with him:
HIS POINT: It's unsafe to ride up on other cyclists unless you know them, and more specifically, it's unsafe to approach--and especially pass--anyone on a descent.
MY POINT: If you're riding in a group, the group has the responsibility to communicate within itself new and evolving conditions: "Car back" or "Rider on", or whatever. My sense of etiquette says that after my initial announcement, the group should have telegraphed up the line my presence--"Faster rider back"--and decided on a collective strategy--"Hang right, let him through." They didn't, and I was forced to adopt the best and safest strategy I could muster under the conditions. Neverthess, the initial error, I felt, was a failure of group etiquette, and it was theirs.

Yes? No? Any better way to handle this in general?

treebound · Jun 8, 2004

Rules of the road

shawnbbrad said:
CASE IN POINT: Coming down a local long technical descent, on a generous-width road, I come up on a slower group of team-kit roadies, comfortably descending down the middle of our one lane.

They were in the wrong for riding in the center of the lane in a group on an open roadway. If the leader of that group is not aware of this then he is not a leader. Team ride, training ride, does not matter, when a group is using an open uncontrolled public roadway they absolutely must comply with the rules of the road. Move right as far as is safely possible and let following traffic pass. If they have to they should possibly even have broken up into smaller groups for the downhill section.

I'm no czar, but I know common curtesy.

Rich_Racer · Jun 8, 2004

It's impolite, irritating, and dangerous!

It really annoys me when someone drafts off me. (I agree the San Diego coast is particularly bad.) I have to start thinking of them when passing obstacles, worrying that they're going to hit me when I slow down, and get distracted from the work out I'm trying to do.

If I'm just riding along, and someone comes along side for a chat then that's cool. I like it. Good to meet people on the road.

If someone passes me I let them go. If they suddenly start riding at my pace after they pass me then I try to stay several metres behind them.

carver · Jun 8, 2004

Seat Bag?

PMC said:
Note to self - ditch the seat bag or "Tool Roadie nom de Plume" will think I'm a Fred when he tries to hold my wheel on his MTB. You really don't need spare tubes or any of that stuff if you're a real roadie...

Troll
Troll
Troll
Troll

You're on it PMC - I made the same note to self - but you forgot to mention that real roadies put the pump and spare tube, patch kit, levers in their jerseys!! Not!

Around here in the mountains, we get a good chuckle out of the occasional knucklehead (fortunately they are rare around here) out in BFE without some parts and tools.

Etiquette - drafting strangers

macalu

Kram

treebound

PMC

Spinfinity

terry b

MShaw

Charlie Amerique

treebound

Mel Erickson

OokieCookie

MShaw

SteveD

shawnbbrad

terzo rene

Dctrofspin

bimini

treebound

Rich_Racer

carver

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