What effect does EPO actually have....

SOP_E · Jun 25, 2004

Can someone please put me in the know on how EOP/dopping products enhance performance? Specifically, what is the effect on oxygen in blood? Also, what type of impact/benefit to performance does this have? Are we talking about greater endurance, lactate threshold, or recovery? Can the effects be quantified in mph/hr?

Don't know a darn thing about this stuff and am looking for a little help on the subject. I want to believe that L.A. isn't a doper. A buddy of mine(from Ireland) has always been of the opinion that if everyone else is doping, how could L.A. beat them so strongly and not be doping himself? I guess this part of the reason of my questions above. How great are the benefits of doping? And could someone really beat a field of dopers without doping him/herself?

Thanks in advance.

p.s. - I'm not trolling for L.A. is or isn't a doper, just looking for insight on how the stuff works.

crashjames · Jun 25, 2004

not a doctor, nor do i play one on tv

basically it makes your red blood cells bigger, so they can carry more oxygen, and improve performance. All the talk about VO2 max you hear is how well a person can process the oxygen they breathe.

More oxygen leads to greater endurance. The same effect can be created naturally by living at altitude, or sleeping in an altitude tent.

I'm sure you'll get more edumication as this thread progresses...

maddog · Jun 25, 2004

crashjames said:
basically it makes your red blood cells bigger, so they can carry more oxygen, and improve performance. All the talk about VO2 max you hear is how well a person can process the oxygen they breathe.

More oxygen leads to greater endurance. The same effect can be created naturally by living at altitude, or sleeping in an altitude tent.

I'm sure you'll get more edumication as this thread progresses...

EPO is a substance that your kidneys secrete that induces your bone marrow to make red blood cells. Injecting additional EPO induces the bone marrow to produce more red blood cells, thereby increasing the oxygen-carrying capacity of your blood.

azmadoc · Jun 25, 2004

Actuall EPO (erythropoetin) stimulates the production of red blood cells leading to increased oxygen carrying capacity. The danger with epo use is that your red blood cell count will become so high that your blood will start to sludge in the capillaries leading to impaired oxygen delivery. In the brain this can cause stroke.

So dopers try to strike a balance between increased oxygen carrying capacity(more RBC's) and decreased oxygen delivery(sludging). Its a razor's edge, for sure.

Dwaynebarry · Jun 25, 2004

One team, One name

SOP_E said:
How great are the benefits of doping?

Gewiss and Evgeni Berzin

When they reportedly got the jump on the peloton in the doping arms race, EPO was good for a sweep of the Liege-Bastogne-Liege podium and the GC of the Giro for Berzin.

Ricky2 · Jun 25, 2004

Millar just admitted to heavy EPO use!

Dude! David Millar just got busted today for EPO! They should ban the cheater for life and strip him of his gold medals and world championships! I'm sure they'll probe him on other riders he knows. Its on Velonews and I also saw it on a CNN ticker.

Millar, if you will recall, was one of the heavy proponents of "clean" racing and was one of the riders who always preached for a drug-free sport. WOW!

Dwaynebarry · Jun 25, 2004

"Dude! David Millar just got busted today for EPO! They should ban the cheater for life and strip him of his gold medals and world championships!"

Why, there is no reason to believe all the guys he beat weren't doing the same thing, and unless he admits to doping at that time no proof he was doping. OTOH, if he admits to it at that time, I think they will strip his medals. I think they did this with Miguel Martinez when he admitted to EPO use when he won his world mountain bike championship.

Ricky2 · Jun 25, 2004

Ban Millar for life!

Dwaynebarry said:
"Dude! David Millar just got busted today for EPO! They should ban the cheater for life and strip him of his gold medals and world championships!"

Why, there is no reason to believe all the guys he beat weren't doing the same thing, and unless he admits to doping at that time no proof he was doping. OTOH, if he admits to it at that time, I think they will strip his medals. I think they did this with Miguel Martinez when he admitted to EPO use when he won his world mountain bike championship.

Screw that! He needs to be banned for life. ESPN has on its fron page that track sprinter Tim Montgomery may be banned for life from his sport for alleged drug use even though he never tested positive either. They banned Ben Johnson for life. Why not Millar? Clean up this sport and set an example!

Dwaynebarry · Jun 25, 2004

Ricky2 said:
Screw that! He needs to be banned for life. ESPN has on its fron page that track sprinter Tim Montgomery may be banned for life from his sport for alleged drug use even though he never tested positive either. They banned Ben Johnson for life. Why not Millar? Clean up this sport and set an example!

I've got no problem with that if that's what the rules are, but I don't understand how if you fail an EPO test you get a 1-year (?) suspension, but if you admit to EPO use or the cops find it in your house you get a lifetime ban. What's the extra penalty for, exposing the inadequacy of the doping controls? As it stands now, I don't think the UCI has a lifetime ban for doping on the 1st offense. And think about how much the brilliance of Merckx would have been missed with such a harsh penalty, at what point in his career did he fail his first doping test?

Kerry Irons · Jun 25, 2004

Lance doesn't need to use EPO

Lance has a hypobaric tent that he can sleep in - it's like sleeping at high altitude. This is a way to stimulate the body to produce extra blood cells, just like EPO does but without using drugs. A lot more expensive and less convenient than just jabbing the needle, but it's legal. The story is that this is what Jeanson was using, but she overshot her time in the tent and got her hematocrit too high, preventing her participating in the worlds. Lance's use of the tent has been reported in the cycling press, so it's not a secret.

mika962 · Jun 25, 2004

I'm not sure it was Martinez who was stripped of medals

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it was Miguel Martinez who got stripped of MTB his medals for doping. I can't remember his name now but it was another Euro MTBer and if I remember right, he came clean after he retired or was forced to retire. Anybody know who I'm talking about?

CFBlue · Jun 25, 2004

Lance is doped

Kerry Irons said:
Lance has a hypobaric tent that he can sleep in - it's like sleeping at high altitude. This is a way to stimulate the body to produce extra blood cells, just like EPO does but without using drugs. A lot more expensive and less convenient than just jabbing the needle, but it's legal. The story is that this is what Jeanson was using, but she overshot her time in the tent and got her hematocrit too high, preventing her participating in the worlds. Lance's use of the tent has been reported in the cycling press, so it's not a secret.

Geez! Come on dude! An altitude tent simulates sleeping at altitude, but that is nowhere in the world of EPO!

Ricky2 · Jun 25, 2004

Dwaynebarry said:
I've got no problem with that if that's what the rules are, but I don't understand how if you fail an EPO test you get a 1-year (?) suspension, but if you admit to EPO use or the cops find it in your house you get a lifetime ban. What's the extra penalty for, exposing the inadequacy of the doping controls? As it stands now, I don't think the UCI has a lifetime ban for doping on the 1st offense. And think about how much the brilliance of Merckx would have been missed with such a harsh penalty, at what point in his career did he fail his first doping test?

Man, cycling is such a drugged sport. Only a 1 year suspension for EPO? Ridiculous! In track, ANY offense carries with it a minimum 2 year ban, if certain conditions are met. Meaning, if you give up names of other athletes, suppliers, etc. Now track is moving to a no tolerance policy as evidenced by how they are handling the Tim Montgomery thing. Go to ESPN. Tim is boyfriend of Marion Jones. Track wants him banned for life based on court papers and sworn testimony. Yet, he's never tested positive!

Cycling needs to clean up its image and ban Millar for life. No exceptions anymore. Do it. No more cheats in this sport.

Francis Cebedo · Jun 25, 2004

My problem with this whole EPO and doping issue is the tests SUCK! The tests can can't catch squat. The testing is in the stone age while drug development is in the space age.

- David Millar 'has never failed a drug test'. How many times have we heard that? He has just been caught with empty viles of EPO and he has just confessed to authorities. I think the whole team has been caught as well.

- Raymundas Rumsas went from obscurity to placing 2nd or 3rd in the 2001 TDF before he got kicked out. He kicked ass in all the climbs!!! He passed all the tests with flying colors. The only reason we can implicate him is because his wife was caught with a carful of drugs. Enough for a herd of buffalo.

- Virenque, Pantani, the list goes on. I think Virenque's Festina passed all the tests until they raided hotel rooms and found a cyclists-gone-wild EPO party.

- Jeanson, the canadian superwoman rider who would win by 10 minutes last year never failed a drug test until her doctor got caught EPOing and he fingered Jeanson. Now, the dominator can't win a damn race.

- Outside of biking, there's a big local case here in Northern Ca called 'Balco Corp'. A super-drug manufacturer. They have client after client that are superstars in track and baseball/football. None/few of these athletes ever tested positive for drugs, but it is clear they are customers of Balco... and they look like mutant ninja athletes.

So a confusing landscape. They can't catch anyone and when they do, there's more doubt than answers. I don't trust anyone now at the top levels. I just try not let it completely ruin my fascination for cycling.

francois

russw19 · Jun 26, 2004

Manhattan said:
Geez! Come on dude! An altitude tent simulates sleeping at altitude, but that is nowhere in the world of EPO!

An average couch potato (ok, just for Dan Quayle couch potatoe) can register a hemocrit as high as 43%. Completely normal! Dehydrated, it can climb as high as 48%. Still normal. The 'medical cut off' for professional cycling is at 50%, which actually is still within the range of 'normal' for about 5 to 8% of the general population. When the UCI initially was trying to decide on where to set the medical imposed limit, they at first wanted to set the limit at 53%, which would have been a better number to catch most cheaters.... the reason is that an average human can up their hemocrit level overnight by as much as 7 to 10% by prolonged sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber. This site claims "The elevated pressure within the hyperbaric chamber results in a 10-15 fold increase in plasma oxygen concentration." -http://www.baromedical.com/about/about.html

So yes, an altitude tent is just as effective as putting the EPO needle straight into your leg. The catch is that about the cheapest of these 'tents' that you can find are around $45,000 and not exactly portable.... if they were able to cary these on the road, you can bet your a$$ that every single pro team would have them and have their riders sleeping in them. But you can't carry them around on tour, so the needle and the ampule go in the doctor's bag instead.

Russ

purplepaul · Jun 26, 2004

I had a skating buddy who was looking into buying one. IIRC, it was under $10,000. Maybe even around $5K. But, then he went to prison for rape and became a crack addict.

So we might have to wait a bit to find out if it works.

russw19 said:
An average couch potato (ok, just for Dan Quayle couch potatoe) can register a hemocrit as high as 43%. Completely normal! Dehydrated, it can climb as high as 48%. Still normal. The 'medical cut off' for professional cycling is at 50%, which actually is still within the range of 'normal' for about 5 to 8% of the general population. When the UCI initially was trying to decide on where to set the medical imposed limit, they at first wanted to set the limit at 53%, which would have been a better number to catch most cheaters.... the reason is that an average human can up their hemocrit level overnight by as much as 7 to 10% by prolonged sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber. This site claims "The elevated pressure within the hyperbaric chamber results in a 10-15 fold increase in plasma oxygen concentration." -http://www.baromedical.com/about/about.html

So yes, an altitude tent is just as effective as putting the EPO needle straight into your leg. The catch is that about the cheapest of these 'tents' that you can find are around $45,000 and not exactly portable.... if they were able to cary these on the road, you can bet your a$$ that every single pro team would have them and have their riders sleeping in them. But you can't carry them around on tour, so the needle and the ampule go in the doctor's bag instead.

Russ

russw19 · Jun 26, 2004

purplepaul said:
I had a skating buddy who was looking into buying one. IIRC, it was under $10,000. Maybe even around $5K. .

About 5 minutes after I typed that, I found a few that were more in line with the prices you found. I think the big difference seems to be that they are more like tents.. the 45 grand ones are like hospital or marine pressurized chambers. I am sure with some research someone could find one for 5 grand... but I am not going to search cuz I don't ride enough that they would help my fat a$$ anyways...

Russ

supercrank · Jun 26, 2004

clarification

With all due respect, I think you're confusing hyperbaric chambers with altitude tents-- they're totally different. The former can be used to deliver supranormal oxygen concentrations (up to 100% oxygen at 3 atm) and is used primarily for aiding wound healing and for carbon monoxide poisoning (though the data are sketchy on this indication). Hyperbaric chambers are also used by deep sea divers to decompress. For a cyclist, there would be no advantageous physiologic adaptation to being exposed to supranormal concentrations of oxygen.

I believe Lance and Genevieve Jeanson use a hypoxic tent, which does the opposite--it simply provides a low fraction of inspired oxygen at normal atmospheric pressure to simulate the oxygen content of air at high altitude. Chronic hypoxia will lead to increased production of endogenous erythropoetin by the kidneys, leading to increased red blood cell production and thereby increasing the oxygen carrying capacity of a given volume of blood. This is the reason why some patients with chronic lung disease who are chronically hypoxic will frequently have hematocrits in the 50% range-- some of the highest crits I've seen were in 3 pack/day smokers! One theoretical benefit of the hypoxic tent vs. injected EPO is that prolonged hypoxia also leads to upregulation of 2,3-DPG, a substance which in effect favors offloading of oxygen from the blood to peripheral tissues (eg muscle).

Hope this helps

mellowman · Jun 26, 2004

That last bit was really interesting. The reason LA sought out Dr. Ferrari for "training advice" was probably for stuff like this.

dlbcx · Jun 26, 2004

Also, an iron supplement has to be taken with the EPO; otherwise, you still have anemic condition since the newly created cells don't have the iron to make hemoglobin.
I remember reading some time ago that the French did some random tests on some juniors and found that iron levels were really high...maybe three to four times, compared to a normal person.

What effect does EPO actually have....

SOP_E

crashjames

maddog

azmadoc

Dwaynebarry

Ricky2

Dwaynebarry

Ricky2

Dwaynebarry

Kerry Irons

mika962

CFBlue

Ricky2

Francis Cebedo

russw19

purplepaul

russw19

supercrank

mellowman

dlbcx

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