Full circle pedaling

tsalconoci4891 · Sep 21, 2006

I'm just wondering about pedaling in a full circle. I've been on my road bike now for less than two months and I enjoy being able to pull as well as push, but I have a couple of questions:

1) I have a couple of dead spots in my circle, near the bottom and near the top. I'm thinking that this is because I am transitioning from the push to the pull and vice versa. Is this a proper assumption or do I need to work on these spots?

2) When I'm on the flats and cruising along I don't pedal all the way around. I just push as I've always done. When I catch myself doing this I will pull up but I don't get much out of the extra effort and so I revert to just pushing rather than pushing and pulling. As I continue to work on this full circle pedaling will I over time just automatically pedal full circle and is this something I should be working toward?

wim · Sep 21, 2006

Two thoughts of 10,000 written about this

To generate the same amount of power through the full pedal circle over more than just a few seconds is a theoretical construct that can never be realized. However, the construct helps you visualize what you should work towards, and obviously you're doing that.

Many riders and coaches have come to believe that pulling up while riding seated is not effective. They feel that the effort required to do so is not worth the relatively small gains in power. Tests on elite cyclist seemed to have confirmed this - many top cyclists never or rarely pull up while seated. They push down forcefully, and some more than others push forward and pull back through the top and bottom dead zones.

Most everyone agrees that it's good to unweight the upstroke pedal to some degree. That keeps the power leg from having to push all the weight of the non-power leg up. The savings realized go into forward propulsion.

JCavilia · Sep 21, 2006

As wim said,

"pulling up" is really something of a fiction, but thinking of it may help a rider "smooth out" the pedal stroke, so at least you're unweighting a bit on the upstroke and not pushing against the other leg. To smooth things through the top and bottom dead spots, there's a visualization trick I've heard of that might help a little.

If you watch slow motion film of a good rider spinning fast, you'll note that most of them pedal toes-down through most of the stroke. At the top, think of kicking forward, as if you were kicking a football or soccer ball with your big toe. This may help bring the muscles in front into play a little earlier, and begin the real downward power stroke a little earlier. So you kick forward and then stomp down.

At the bottom, you want to lengthen the power phase by pulling back a little, so imagine that you're "scraping" your shoe against the pedal, as if you had mud on your shoe sole (under the ball of the foot) and were trying to scrape it off on the pedal. This can get you pulling back a little, before you start lifting the leg for the next real stroke.

These can help a little, but don't think about it too hard, or you'll just drive yourself nuts and end up pedaling squares anyway. You can't manipulate pedaling technique that much anyway. It works how it works, and if you practice a lot you'll get smoother and faster. The biggest thing is to ride a lot, and hard, and keep a high cadence. Do you have any idea how fast you usually spin, by the way?

To test just how "unround" your stroke is, try pedalling one-legged. It's a bit trcky to do on the road, but if you have a trainer (or can borrow one), try it. You'll be shocked at how long and dead the dead spots really are, but you shouldn't be shocked. Everybody is like that.

dekindy · Sep 26, 2006

You need to pedal a higher cadence to get a smoother stroke. Get in a gear that you can keep at 90 rpm or above and work on wiping your shoe at the bottom. Do some really high rpm (110-120 spinning) or take a spinning class. As previously suggested, one leg pedaling is great for working on form as well as preparing you to pedal through busy intersections if you can only get one shoe clipped in.

I had a professional fitting done. I had one knee flying out that was a significant reason my stroke was flat. A couple of Lemond shims on that side and one shim on the other took care of it. You may have one leg that is longer than another. These alterations along with adjusting seat height and position, new stem and handlebar, and cleat positioning got me a much smoother stroke and an immediate 8% total power output gain.

One guy that I ride with has a bunch (a dozen maybe) of shims under one cleat because that leg is significantly shorter than the other.

SPDu4ea · Sep 26, 2006

I only "pull up" when I'm pedaling down hard enough (with the other leg) to lift off the seat...

brianmcg · Sep 26, 2006

JCavilia said:
To test just how "unround" your stroke is, try pedalling one-legged. It's a bit trcky to do on the road, but if you have a trainer (or can borrow one), try it. You'll be shocked at how long and dead the dead spots really are, but you shouldn't be shocked. Everybody is like that.

One legged pedaling drills are great. I love doing them on the trainer. They really show you how weak your hip flexors are.

levels1069 · Sep 26, 2006

i only pull out when she wan...oh...right. nevermind then.

more honestly, check out any number of cycling books for better technique drills. I just got my copy of Joe Friels' "Cyclist Training Bible" and its awesome, i also got the "triathletes training bible" as well. He's incredibly practical and smart in his coaching.
One of the things he teaches is the one legged spinning drills, they were paramount to smoothing on my rotation on the bike. I'd suggest them on a trainer or a recum. bike, as pedaling with one leg is not only dangerous but people will point and laugh lol.

RowRonin · Sep 26, 2006

Arc drills

This was my first year racing, so I've spent a lot of time on my pedal stroke. I found the technique part of 63xc.com helpful, especially the arc drills. It divides up the stroke into 4 arcs, and you focus on them individually. I incorporated them into my warmup: http://www.63xc.com/gregg/101_8.htm.

I had a eureka moment toward the end of this season. I read a tip from Greg Lemond about pedalling circles. The first part is to imagine scraping mud off your shoe at the bottom of the stroke (arc 2). This one I've heard since day one, but the second part was new to me: as your pedal begins to come up (arc 3, the upstroke), push your knee toward the handlebar instead of pulling your heel toward the saddle. Pull the pedal through with your knee, don't pull up with your heel.

I had been inadvertently using my hamstring to pull up on the pedal. Pedalling this way, my spin improved substatially within a week. Now I'm able to stay ahead of the gear on my fixed gear bike going downhill, without having to tap the brakes.

I was surprised by this, all the one-legged drills, the arc drills, high cadence spinning I've done didn't have nearly the impact of this basic idea of pulling up with your knees.

-Jeff

JayTee · Sep 26, 2006

Great advice above. Not to ask the obvious, but I assume you are in clipless pedals? I think it is almost impossible to get a good pedal stroke without them, even in clips and straps the tendency is up-and-down pistoning.

hollowlegs99 · Oct 2, 2006

Ah, it's really all of the above and none of the above. It's a spot about and inch below your belly button that makes it all work. No one here talked about the magic pin in your ankle. Circles. I rode with a 6 day racer from the 1930's and 1940's and his best advice was, "Keep your ankles down you idiot!". Ride. Ride and ride some more and some moment you'll feel it and then it will go. My advice, don't think so much. Feel the energy flowing. When you need it most power up and fly. You've got to want it bad too.

tubafreak · Oct 2, 2006

Full circles are not about maximum power output, they're not good at that. One thing they are useful for however is spinning out gears. You'll always be rough above about 100 cadence until you spin in circles to smooth everything out. I was on a ride today cruising in 42-19 (yes, I'm riding a triple, I got a deal). I start down a hill that's got a nice flat runoff for a mile or so, I decide to see how fast I can get without shifting. I ended up going about 27 mph, I thank my fixie for teaching me how to spin that fast, I now only wish that Sheldon Browns gear calculator could figure out what the cadence there was, it only goes up to 120.

John Nelson · Oct 2, 2006

cadence
equals
27 (miles per hour)
times
5280 (feet per mile)
times
12 (inches per feet)
divided by
60 (minutes per hour)
divided by
42 (front ring teeth)
times
19 (rear ring teeth)
divided by
27 (inches in wheel diameter)
divided by
pi (converting diameter to circumference)

That's 152.

JCavilia · Oct 2, 2006

The math isn't that hard

tubafreak said:
I ended up going about 27 mph, I thank my fixie for teaching me how to spin that fast, I now only wish that Sheldon Browns gear calculator could figure out what the cadence there was, it only goes up to 120.

Assuming you have average-size tires (700c, 23mm), you were spinning about 156 rpm

wim · Oct 2, 2006

Full circles are not about maximum power output, they're not good at that.

I have to disagree with that. Pedaling circles at low rpm while bringing large forces onto the pedals will create great amounts of power—just as pedaling circles at high rpm with small forces on the pedals would.

In my experience, "pedaling circles" is often misunderstood as something firmly tied to high-rpm spinning. If you want to prevail in races or cover ground quickly on a tour, it's just as important to learn how to pedal circles (perhaps "push circles" would be a better term) while turning a large gear at low rpm.

Spinning or mashing, you'll never be able to apply equal force all the way around the pedal circle at right angles to the crank. But to pedal round and smooth for as large of an arc as you can in both small gears and large gears will make you a more powerful and versatile rider.

Full circle pedaling

tsalconoci4891

wim

JCavilia

dekindy

SPDu4ea

brianmcg

levels1069

RowRonin

JayTee

hollowlegs99

tubafreak

John Nelson

JCavilia

wim

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