I, for one, am glad to see Mike on this board

WheresWaldo · Oct 21, 2006

As some may know, I am the owner of two BikesDirect Motobecane bikes. My daughter rides a LeChampion SL and I have an Immortal Force. I have reviewed them here and at BikeForums.net

Immortal Force Impressions
1000 mile Immortal Force Update
My daughter's new bike

I for one, have been very happy with the service and the bikes I have gotten from BD, I have been labeled a shill also even though the first bikes I ever posted about were the Cannondale Tandem my daughter and I ride, and the TST Ti bike I built while recovering from Gastric Bypass surgery this past January.

So far what I have noticed from Mikes posts is someone who is genuinely interested in all aspects of cycling. Especially making it affordable to those who are on the edge, financially speaking. He has added some insight to the bicycle industry while at the same time not belittling other companies. I hope he stays here and continues to post.

Mike, if you read this also take a stroll over to the other big BikeForums. There are many BD owners there too, and they would surely benefit from your contributions. Of course like anything that is done in anonymity there will be detractors, bith here and there. Please don't let those few spoil your enjoyment of sharing with us regular folk.

I for one will not be afraid to tell you who I am, I will just do it a little less publicly (in a PM) if I am ever requested.

bikesdirect · Oct 22, 2006

Thank you so much

Mr whereswaldo - I can not thank you enough for your comments and your business. It is really appreciated. You like dozens of others were wrongly labeled and I am sorry about that. Just like every customer we have; if you ever need help with any issue on a bike from us, just let us know.

I am enjoying reading these forums; even the guys that call names and makeup stories without posting their names are funny. There is a dark side to the forums like anything else but overall it seems like a great way for people with a common interest to share information and experiences. My wife is a marathon runner and she visits running forums everyday {erxcept today when she is running 26.2 miles with 40,000 other people in Chicago}.

I wish I had time to read and post on all the topics on all the bike forums. Even when people post false things about my competitors I would like to throw in my support. {I am very sorry I missed a chance to post on a thread about Ibex and his wheels}. Unfortunately, time is limited.

I did log on to bikeforums and post one thing. Then I forgot my password {the common excuse of people my age is that something happened to my memory in the 60s}.

I will try to keep up here and bikeforums too; plus I think there must be others. And I hope I can do it without sticking my foot in my mouth.

Thanks again

bikesdirect · Oct 22, 2006

Your links on bikeforum

Mr whereswaldo

Wow – I just read your posts. Incredible detail. Thanks for taking the time. Yours seems like a fair review.

Mr Dave Hickey on this board has commented on how he does not believe some magazine reviews. If he knew the insides of the cycle publishing biz, he would believe even fewer reviews. That is my guess. {with that in mind I have offered that he compare some bikes in Dallas and post his review – which might be more fair}

On your post and a few that answered there are three areas that concern me.
1 – star nut that should have been compression nut [when compression nut was specd]
2 – skewers that stick thru box when UPS lays them flat
3 – build time and detail out of the box

About a year ago I started a project to move several bikes to the most expensive assembler in Taiwan. {what customers call ‘factories’ are not really factories – they are assemblers who buy all parts, frame, and fork and assemble and box}.

The assembler we will now use on all Immortals, Fantoms, and Flys is only used by highend companies in Europe. They reject more pieces prior to assemble than any other assembler, they pre-build to 98%, they use the thickest cardboard on a box I have ever seen on a bike, and they follow specs to the letter. Their boxes only allow 280 units per container when 310 is the standard [thus even ocean freight is more when buying from them].

I will also move all le Champions except the SL models. I think it is well know the SL models are based on an Ideal [Fuji] platform. No reason to change that as the work is excellent and you dance with who brought you. Sprint, Grand Sprint, and Sprint Tour will be moved so I can have enough volume to interest the assembler.

That all said – some Immortal Forces that I specd with compression plug did come with star nut and some skewers poked thru boxes during shipping. I think you know how we handle any problem that arises.

My dream objective is that all bikes in the future come pre-built and adjusted out of the box. One must have something to shot for! Years ago there I was in a marketing class discussion about a Sony 200 year plan to make All Consumer Products Free. Some people thought that was nuts. I thought, wow! What a great way to set your target.

With that kind of optimism in mind my dream targets are
1 - all bikes built and adjusted out of the box
2 – no road racer ever loses a race due to not being able to afford good enough equipment
3 – no mom rides the MS150 on a 40 lb mountain bike due to not having enough money for a road bike
4 – no sprint tri beginner on hybrids because the local shop said tri bikes start at $2000
5 – no XC mountain biker racer on a 30 lb hardtail due to sub 25 lbs ones being over $3000
6 - and what the heck, peace on earth in my children’s lifetime

WheresWaldo · Oct 22, 2006

Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to read my posts. I have always tried to be fair and provide all sides to a story if I am aware of them. With that in mind if you ever need an objective review, or product tester...

With regard to the star nut. I understand that some carbon steerer tube forks will allow the use of a starnut but I am leery of them in that application. Either way your staff did the correct thing and made me a happy customer. Replacing the fork and providing a compression nut in it's place.

Stuff happens, when the bicycle leaves your facility and UPS picks it up it is totally out of your control. As long as it wasn't damaged that is the most important thing, and in my case there was no damage. Just as a side note. I bought my Cannondale road tandem from a buddy of mine that owns a bike shop clear across the country. When I got it there were two holes in the box where the front and rear axle (with plastic protector) were sticking out of the box.

Please note that my build time was lengthed because you were an unknown entity to me. I did not know of the quality of your assembler. so I was compelled to take the bike apart and reassemble. Another note, I did order the bike the same time as another BikeForums poster who lives just 85 miles southwest of me. This humorous thread describes the imaginary race between two UPS carriers to see who would post the first pictures of their assembled Immortal Force. I was able to assemble the bike in about 20 minutes and had pictures posted a few minutes later. Mind you nothing was adjusted properly, and the bike was not fit to me, that came later after disassembly and reassembly.

I am sure that you noted that I did make changes to both the BD bikes I bought. In general they were for personal reasons not because of any perceived lack on your part with respect to parts selection. The only exception was the Cane Creek brakeset, I was used to Shimano Ultegra brakes, I noticed a lot of excess movement in the brake arms on the Cane Creek around the pivot bolt. So I replaced it with an Ultegra brakeset. I have since used the Cane Creek brakeset in a Leader TT bike I built up as you should never need to brake on the flat TT courses we have here.

:blush2:

I am looking forward to seeing if you reach your goals. I have suggested to many of my friends that if they are looking for an inexpensive well speced bike that they should visit your website. I even suggested to them that I would assemble it for them if they did. I too want to see many more people enjoying our sport.

With that in mind I will also keep you informed on my 15yo daughter's racing career that she will start in the spring. She is training right now with a cycling coach. She will be riding her Le Champion SL, and loving it!

Lifelover · Oct 22, 2006

Clearly having Mike post will only help. If he can continue to post and limit the shill/troll post it would stop/limit folks like myself who get a kick out of taking shots at BD. One post like the one Waldo made is worth a million shill post. And Waldo is not the only happy BD bike rider on the boards.

So in an honest effort to allow you address some detractors I thought I would ask you directly some of the more common complains that folks like me make about BD .

You have addressed the lack of phone and the cheesy looking website as a cost savings move so I won't even go there.

The use legacy names without full disclosure. While I understand from a marketing stand point why you want a name that folks a familiar with, it comes across as little dishonest when they is never any mentioned link between the companies. The Websites that are set up for the "brands" seem to list bikes that as far as I can tell are not available anywhere.

Why do you continue to use such over inflated MRSPs? There are couple of issues here. Even though this practice is not uncommon (Ibex does it as well) yours seem to be inflated more than the others. Secondly, if you are the manufacture than the whole concept of MRSP is a joke. Has anyone really paid $2895 fro an Immortal Force?

Do you view it as ok to openly copy other companies designs? You stated that it is well known that the SL is based on a Fuji model. I assume that Fuji invested time and money into the design. Are you paying them a royalty?

Thanks
G Green
Virginia Beach, Virginia

WheresWaldo · Oct 22, 2006

Lifeover, I understand what you are saying about brand names, but I don't understand your excessive concern. I work in the software business, and sometimes brand names are the only thing of value that we want when we make a deal with other software companies. Many times we will buy a company let all of their employees go and then use the name for our own purposes. That does not mean we are dishonest?

This happens in other industries also. I am sure your house has many items that share a name only resemblance to their "heritage." Would it be better if these bicycle names of the past remain in desolate obscurity?

I won't comment about the other items in your post as I don't know sqawt about these types of things.

bikesdirect · Oct 22, 2006

A few points to answer

Lifelover said:
Clearly having Mike post will only help. If he can continue to post and limit the shill/troll post it would stop/limit folks like myself who get a kick out of taking shots at BD. One post like the one Waldo made is worth a million shill post. And Waldo is not the only happy BD bike rider on the boards.

So in an honest effort to allow you address some detractors I thought I would ask you directly some of the more common complains that folks like me make about BD .

You have addressed the lack of phone and the cheesy looking website as a cost savings move so I won't even go there.

The use legacy names without full disclosure. While I understand from a marketing stand point why you want a name that folks a familiar with, it comes across as little dishonest when they is never any mentioned link between the companies. The Websites that are set up for the "brands" seem to list bikes that as far as I can tell are not available anywhere.

Why do you continue to use such over inflated MRSPs? There are couple of issues here. Even though this practice is not uncommon (Ibex does it as well) yours seem to be inflated more than the others. Secondly, if you are the manufacture than the whole concept of MRSP is a joke. Has anyone really paid $2895 fro an Immortal Force?

Do you view it as ok to openly copy other companies designs? You stated that it is well known that the SL is based on a Fuji model. I assume that Fuji invested time and money into the design. Are you paying them a royalty?

Thanks
G Green
Virginia Beach, Virginia

Mr Green
I am glad you decided to identify yourself. You have posted many things that have been bought to my attention; and many of those posts are flat out lies. I hope that you will now think it over before repeating such behavior.

That said - I will answer these few questions.

I like legacy names; especially ones like Motobecane that I had a design hand in for decades. When I can acquire these at reasonable cost, I do. Other names like Mango are just ones I made up. see www.mangocruisers.com I prefer to acquire names than licensing - as licensing has an on going cost.

Only in the Case of Bottecchia do I pay such a fee. I made the Bottecchia deal as I thought it would help me bring some items such as Campy to market at a better value. This winter Campy Fans will have a way to get FULL Record bikes at a price they never dreamed of. {when I spec full Record I do not cheat on chain, cassette, etc}

Customers like to see an MSRP. Example – what should I say a Full Campy Record road bike with American Classic Wheels and Columbus Zonal frame with smooth welds is worth? Would that be $2500? $3000? $3500? 4000? If I sell that bike at $1795 should I say the MSRP is $1795 even though shops sell the group alone for more than that?

The Motobecane FLY TEAM is the lightest stock hardtail I know of. It is under 20 lbs. Bikes that compete with it are 23 lbs with MSRP of $2800 to $3500. My current MSRP is $2495. The 2007 model will be lighter still; have Ritchey WSC bar, stem, seatpost; have Americasn Classic MTB wheelset; likely be 19.3 lbs. What should I say the MSRP should be? At $3000 it would be the best equipped hardtail under $4000.

You bring up the Immortal Force at $2895 MSRP. Have you looked at the specs of the Trek Madone 5.0 {$2800}, Specialized Tarmac Expert {$2600}, or Fuji Team Pro {$2700}? Would you like to point out how an Immortal Force does no come up to that level? Which of these 4 bikes do you think is lightest? I can tell you which one uses the most expensive frame and wheels.

MSRP is a guideline. Price paid is what matters. I will gladly compare any of our bikes to any bike on the market at a price paid basis.

Quick anser to short question. Yes, Motobecane, Mercier, Bottecchia, and Windsor bikes are sold in shops besides mine. Which of course has nothing to do with the ultimate question of value delivered.

Now for your last and most strange question. I can only think you are making up these questions as a way to make me and/or my company look bad. But this question on Fuji is silly beyond belief.

Let’s start with KHS. I have a Mercier Kilo TT that built by UEC {who owns KHS.}. It is exactly a KHS track. I have an entry Tri bike called the Mercier Aero TT that is exactly a KHS tri bike. I am a huge customer with KHS both bikes and parts. Now do you think I stole those bikes from KHS and had UEC make them? KHS and UEC are owned by two brothers who work closely together. I count them as close friends. Might you think something like ~~ Maybe they are working with me to improve both our businesses? What do you think?

Your question – FUJI SL and le Champion SL. Fuji is owned by Ideal. I purchase thousands of bikes from Ideal as do many other brands. I am also a large Fuji customer for my stores. Do you think I stole a design from Fuji and then ask Ideal to make it? Do you think I have no design ideas we ever share with Ideal and Fuji? Maybe they are working with me to improve both our businesses? What do you think?

Mr Green – I fielded your insulting and silly questions because you identified yourself after my request that you do so. However, I will not field any more questions that are insulting to start with, as that just throws fuel on the fire. I would request you refrain from posting anything that has to do with me, my company, or my brands.

Lifelover · Oct 22, 2006

bikesdirect said:
Mr Green
I am glad you decided to identify yourself. You have posted many things that have been bought to my attention; and many of those posts are flat out lies. I hope that you will now think it over before repeating such behavior.

That said - I will answer these few questions.

I like legacy names; especially ones like Motobecane that I had a design hand in for decades. When I can acquire these at reasonable cost, I do. Other names like Mango are just ones I made up. see www.mangocruisers.com I prefer to acquire names than licensing - as licensing has an on going cost.

Only in the Case of Bottecchia do I pay such a fee. I made the Bottecchia deal as I thought it would help me bring some items such as Campy to market at a better value. This winter Campy Fans will have a way to get FULL Record bikes at a price they never dreamed of. {when I spec full Record I do not cheat on chain, cassette, etc}

Customers like to see an MSRP. Example – what should I say a Full Campy Record road bike with American Classic Wheels and Columbus Zonal frame with smooth welds is worth? Would that be $2500? $3000? $3500? 4000? If I sell that bike at $1795 should I say the MSRP is $1795 even though shops sell the group alone for more than that?

The Motobecane FLY TEAM is the lightest stock hardtail I know of. It is under 20 lbs. Bikes that compete with it are 23 lbs with MSRP of $2800 to $3500. My current MSRP is $2495. The 2007 model will be lighter still; have Ritchey WSC bar, stem, seatpost; have Americasn Classic MTB wheelset; likely be 19.3 lbs. What should I say the MSRP should be? At $3000 it would be the best equipped hardtail under $4000.

You bring up the Immortal Force at $2895 MSRP. Have you looked at the specs of the Trek Madone 5.0 {$2800}, Specialized Tarmac Expert {$2600}, or Fuji Team Pro {$2700}? Would you like to point out how an Immortal Force does no come up to that level? Which of these 4 bikes do you think is lightest? I can tell you which one uses the most expensive frame and wheels.

MSRP is a guideline. Price paid is what matters. I will gladly compare any of our bikes to any bike on the market at a price paid basis.

Quick anser to short question. Yes, Motobecane, Mercier, Bottecchia, and Windsor bikes are sold in shops besides mine. Which of course has nothing to do with the ultimate question of value delivered.

Now for your last and most strange question. I can only think you are making up these questions as a way to make me and/or my company look bad. But this question on Fuji is silly beyond belief.

Let’s start with KHS. I have a Mercier Kilo TT that built by UEC {who owns KHS.}. It is exactly a KHS track. I have an entry Tri bike called the Mercier Aero TT that is exactly a KHS tri bike. I am a huge customer with KHS both bikes and parts. Now do you think I stole those bikes from KHS and had UEC make them? KHS and UEC are owned by two brothers who work closely together. I count them as close friends. Might you think something like ~~ Maybe they are working with me to improve both our businesses? What do you think?

Your question – FUJI SL and le Champion SL. Fuji is owned by Ideal. I purchase thousands of bikes from Ideal as do many other brands. I am also a large Fuji customer for my stores. Do you think I stole a design from Fuji and then ask Ideal to make it? Do you think I have no design ideas we ever share with Ideal and Fuji? Maybe they are working with me to improve both our businesses? What do you think?

Mr Green – I fielded your insulting and silly questions because you identified yourself after my request that you do so. However, I will not field any more questions that are insulting to start with, as that just throws fuel on the fire. I would request you refrain from posting anything that has to do with me, my company, or my brands.

I appreciate your vague attempt at addressing the questions even though (as always) you can't refrain from adding in a little sales pitch.

As far as legacy names go, I get it. It adds credibility at a low cost. Nothing wrong with that I suppose. I still don't understand why the Moto, dawes, Mercier, etc. websites don't list BD or Spectrum as dealers.

MSRP - "Manufacture's Suggested Retail Price" We have a furniture company here in VA called Haynes. Every weekend they have the "biggest sale Ever". It works for them and I guess it works for you. Again, nothing wrong with it if that the way you roll.

As far as the Fuji SL thing goes, If I knew what kind of deal you had with Fuji I wouldn't have asked. I still don't know. I assume you are implying that Fuji is fine with the arrangement? If so, than more power to you. I just don't see how they benefit from the arrangement.

I will give your request the appropriate consideration it deserves.

bikesdirect · Oct 22, 2006

Lifelover said:
As far as the Fuji SL thing goes, If I knew what kind of deal you had with Fuji I wouldn't have asked. I still don't know. I assume you are implying that Fuji is fine with the arrangement? If so, than more power to you. I just don't see how they benefit from the arrangement.

.

Let's see - You can not see how Ideal{FujI} can benefit from a customer who buys 1000s of bikes from them a year and contributes the design experience of 30 years? Hmmm - What I can I say to that?

bikesdirect · Oct 22, 2006

Lifelover said:
I appreciate your vague attempt at addressing the questions

MSRP - "Manufacture's Suggested Retail Price" We have a furniture company here in VA called Haynes. Every weekend they have the "biggest sale Ever". It works for them and I guess it works for you. Again, nothing wrong with it if that the way you roll.

.

Vague? Who is Vague?

I said ask

"what should I say a Full Campy Record road bike with American Classic Wheels and Columbus Zonal frame with smooth welds is worth? Would that be $2500? $3000? $3500? 4000? If I sell that bike at $1795 should I say the MSRP is $1795 even though shops sell the group alone for more than that?

The Motobecane FLY TEAM is the lightest stock hardtail I know of. It is under 20 lbs. Bikes that compete with it are 23 lbs with MSRP of $2800 to $3500. My current MSRP is $2495. The 2007 model will be lighter still; have Ritchey WSC bar, stem, seatpost; have Americasn Classic MTB wheelset; likely be 19.3 lbs. What should I say the MSRP should be? At $3000 it would be the best equipped hardtail under $4000.

You bring up the Immortal Force at $2895 MSRP. Have you looked at the specs of the Trek Madone 5.0 {$2800}, Specialized Tarmac Expert {$2600}, or Fuji Team Pro {$2700}? Would you like to point out how an Immortal Force does no come up to that level? Which of these 4 bikes do you think is lightest? I can tell you which one uses the most expensive frame and wheels."

I NOTICE YOU DID NOT ADDRESS THIS AT ALL
instead you attempt to insult me and my company again

Please point out how the MSRP on the FLY TEAM is too high.

Please point out how the MSRP on the IMMORTAL FORCE is too high.

Please suggest what you think the MSRP sould be on a bike with Columbus Zonal Frame, CF fork, FULL RECORD group, Amercian Classic Sprint 350 wheelset, and Vuelta XRP bar, stem and post. Or tell me what bike you think this is closest to and what its MSRP is. I do have to pick an MSRP for this bike; maybe you think you can pick it better than I. Submit your idea.

or maybe you prefer to be vague

midlife_xs's · Oct 22, 2006

Lifelover said:
As far as the Fuji SL thing goes, If I knew what kind of deal you had with Fuji I wouldn't have asked. I still don't know. I assume you are implying that Fuji is fine with the arrangement? If so, than more power to you. I just don't see how they benefit from the arrangement.

1998-2002 Chevrolet offered the Prizm - a car identical to the Toyota Corolla. Both made in the same plant*. I can only surmise there is a working relationship between the two. Perhaps one is part owner of the other, or one is the principal, the other a subsidiary. Whatever it was, apparently it was mutually beneficial.

*http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2300/

Click to expand...

Lifelover · Oct 22, 2006

midlife_xs's said:
..... Perhaps one is part owner of the other, or one is the principal, the other a subsidiary. Whatever it was, apparently it was mutually beneficial.
..

So Fuji and Moto are co-owned?

Lifelover · Oct 22, 2006

And another thing?

Lifelover said:
Clearly having Mike post will only help. If he can continue to post and limit the shill/troll post it would stop/limit folks like myself who get a kick out of taking shots at BD. One post like the one Waldo made is worth a million shill post. And Waldo is not the only happy BD bike rider on the boards.

So in an honest effort to allow you address some detractors I thought I would ask you directly some of the more common complains that folks like me make about BD .

You have addressed the lack of phone and the cheesy looking website as a cost savings move so I won't even go there.

The use legacy names without full disclosure. While I understand from a marketing stand point why you want a name that folks a familiar with, it comes across as little dishonest when they is never any mentioned link between the companies. The Websites that are set up for the "brands" seem to list bikes that as far as I can tell are not available anywhere.

Why do you continue to use such over inflated MRSPs? There are couple of issues here. Even though this practice is not uncommon (Ibex does it as well) yours seem to be inflated more than the others. Secondly, if you are the manufacture than the whole concept of MRSP is a joke. Has anyone really paid $2895 fro an Immortal Force?

Do you view it as ok to openly copy other companies designs? You stated that it is well known that the SL is based on a Fuji model. I assume that Fuji invested time and money into the design. Are you paying them a royalty?

Thanks
G Green
Virginia Beach, Virginia

Why no geometry tables on the BD website? Or at least links to the "manufactures" geo charts.

Is that a money saving move as well?

tsalconoci4891 · Oct 23, 2006

LifeLover, sorry to hear about your wife. Hope she's feeling better and soon.

VA, huh? Nice place. You'll get to ride for, what, at least another month or so before winter sets in. Me, I'm in limbo land up here in the northern tier: too cold to enjoy a nice cruise, but no snow yet for skiing. Actually I could have ridden today but I chose instead to clear brush from the slopes of a nearby ski hill. Nice views from up there.

Anyway, I did not read every word you wrote so maybe you realized through all this that on BD's website there are links to Moto and others and of course geometry.

Several weeks back I posted how I came to realize that there wasn't a lot of difference, geometry-wise, between most bike frames. I arrived at that conclusion by using the Moto site and then going out to Specialized, Fuji, and a couple of others. Okay, maybe there is difference but for someone like me, a first-time roadie, how the heck would I know?

Tsal

Lifelover · Oct 23, 2006

tsalconoci4891 said:
LifeLover, sorry to hear about your wife. Hope she's feeling better and soon.

VA, huh? Nice place. You'll get to ride for, what, at least another month or so before winter sets in. Me, I'm in limbo land up here in the northern tier: too cold to enjoy a nice cruise, but no snow yet for skiing. Actually I could have ridden today but I chose instead to clear brush from the slopes of a nearby ski hill. Nice views from up there.

Anyway, I did not read every word you wrote so maybe you realized through all this that on BD's website there are links to Moto and others and of course geometry.

Several weeks back I posted how I came to realize that there wasn't a lot of difference, geometry-wise, between most bike frames. I arrived at that conclusion by using the Moto site and then going out to Specialized, Fuji, and a couple of others. Okay, maybe there is difference but for someone like me, a first-time roadie, how the heck would I know?

Tsal

Thanks for the concern about my wife. It was a fairly standard, planned procedure and she seems to be doing well.

VA is nice and hear near the beach I will have days that I can ride year round. I generally don't ride it it gets below 48 degrees but as long as you have a flexible schedule there will be at least a few day every month.

I've come to almost the opposite opinion regarding geometry. I have 5 different road bikes that are all classified as 58s but are all very different in position and handling. None of them are super high end and were all bought used. All of them can be made to work for me but to date only the lowest end one (Trek 1000C) could be set up right without a fairly short, upward pointing stem. And lets face it, how the bike looks is important to most of us on this board.
It wasn't until this summer that I realized that I should not be looking at the Seat tube length but the TT length and drop. You can easily make up 12 inch adjustments with a seat post but only an inch or so in either plane with a stem.

I still don't really understand geometry's affect on handling but it clearly is important.

JayTee · Oct 23, 2006

Now, wait a minute Mike. In fairness, you are taking excess umbrage at questions about claimed "MSRP." It is fair to ask whether a claimed MSRP has ever, ever, ever been the retail price for an item, or whether it is fiction. If it is a "compare at" price like for many discount clothiers, then call it "compare at $_________."

Names DO carry value, not to mention the fact that a couple of the benchmark comparitors you mention have some difference in spec. from the BD bikes. I think to say that BD's MSRP claims are beyond question because bikes by major manufacturers come with similar componentry is a bit of a stretch.

Yes, these issues are emotional and that isn't meant to be a flame, but nor should you think that questions about this issue are unreasonable. At least when I did consumer fraud litigation as a baby lawyer for the Arizona Atty Gen's office, we actually targeted businesses who claimed "sales" that were actually their normal SELLING prices, without regard to claimed MSRPs, hypothetical values, and the like.

These questions are fair ones, IMHO.

bikesdirect · Oct 23, 2006

you are correct

jtolleson said:
Now, wait a minute Mike. In fairness, you are taking excess umbrage at questions about claimed "MSRP." It is fair to ask whether a claimed MSRP has ever, ever, ever been the retail price for an item, or whether it is fiction. If it is a "compare at" price like for many discount clothiers, then call it "compare at $_________."

Names DO carry value, not to mention the fact that a couple of the benchmark comparitors you mention have some difference in spec. from the BD bikes. I think to say that BD's MSRP claims are beyond question because bikes by major manufacturers come with similar componentry is a bit of a stretch.

Yes, these issues are emotional and that isn't meant to be a flame, but nor should you think that questions about this issue are unreasonable. At least when I did consumer fraud litigation as a baby lawyer for the Arizona Atty Gen's office, we actually targeted businesses who claimed "sales" that were actually their normal SELLING prices, without regard to claimed MSRPs, hypothetical values, and the like.

These questions are fair ones, IMHO.

jtolleson

You are completely correct, except there is a history with Mr. lifelover
If you read his posts related to my business you will understand.

You are also correct that names carry value. We sell bikes everyday to people who will pay extra for a given brand name. This varies by person and area. Let me use an example where I do not need to compare Motobecane to Trek OR Bottecchia to Specialized [all 4 of which have their own following]. In Jacksonville my brand Mango is the high value high image brand on cruisers. You are more likely to see a Mango where I live than you are a Trek. People walk in stores and demand to be sold a Mango. Does that mean I can charge more for them? Yes. Do I charge more for them? NO. Reason I do not want to lose my position in the market.

Arizona is also a special case, as I understand they have 'discounting laws' or advertisied discount rules. Every bike we sell has been offered at full listed. Many also sell at full list. Performance in Arizona sells every bike on sale and displays the list price. I personally think the consumers in Arizona benefit from both Performance and us discounting bikes.

And we do sell lots of bikes to other dealers in several states who sell at list when they can. Most discount at least some of the time.

In the area of MSRP, I do know my specs and everyone else's. Bike Spec is one area I am really good at. I know the cost and value added on every bike in the range where I work {$250 to $4000}. I can tell you that MSRPs are all over the board on everyone's bikes. However, some of my bikes the MSRP is way too low compared to the market. And when I bought a to market a bike with extra low MSRP that industry insiders complained to me, including parts suppliers, and Bicycling Magazine ran a reveiw saying the bike was under priced by so much that they called us 3 times to check if it was a mistake.

Sometimes you have a hard time winning. If your MSRP is too low, some people get mad, if it is too high different people get mad, if it is just right [like the Immortal Force] other people get mad. But as long as you are a supplier of bikes, you will have to give dealers MSRPs and customers want to see them too.

Many online retailers post MSRP on bikes that are sold on sale all the time and never sold in bike shops. I do not know if they will be called to task for this by members of this forum. However, I will not do so nor will I even name them as an example. I personally think these other on line retailers {my competitors} sell great stuff and are doing the cycling community a service.

I do not think your questions are unresonable, nor most others poster's questions, But Mr lifelovers questions are not questions; they are attacks. And I will never answer his silly posts again..

Lifelover · Oct 23, 2006

bikesdirect said:
....And I will never answer his silly posts again..

Never is a long time and to date you have not been able to show this kind of discipline.

stainofmind · Oct 23, 2006

^ Why throw gas on the fire?

fran2537 · Oct 23, 2006

Mike, i think you may be missing the point or perhaps showing a bit of willful blindness.
the value of the bike is very different from the MSRP and if you are calculating cost of components as somehow equalling MSRP or looking at at what equivalent bikes' MSRP and adopting that as the MSRP for your bikes, it does not quote ring true.
perhaps a bit of more precise labelling instead of suggesting that someone somewhere is actually selling and someone is buying an MB for the MSRP listed on the BD site.
Say it is a bargain over equivalent bikes, say the compenent groups are vlaued at $XXX; those are powerful statements that will carry more weight and ring truer with the cycling community.

Legal Disclaimer: recently purchased a MB le Champion and like it so far. but never believd the MSRP stuff. looked at the specs and shopped around.

I, for one, am glad to see Mike on this board

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