I guess your search function is not working .....

 

Spesh wants you to epoxy those cups in if they are loose. Do cranks have side to side play? Might have to adjust the preload. If nothing works, go with one of the aftermarket solutions from Praxis, CBear, WheelsMfg and now...Chris King!

 

C-Bear bottom bracket if you are using a specialized or BB30/PF30 crank. It is an aluminum shell with ceramic bearings and has a tighter fit into the shell of the OSBB than the Delrin Cups from specialized. I actually have two sets that I just removed since I went to a Dura Ace crankset. PM me if you are interested in them. I highly recommend them. There are a lot of threads on this but trust me I did my research and this is the best option if staying with that type of crankset. If you are using a shimano or sram crank the Praxis Works conversion BB is totally the way to go and a really quality piece.

 

The C-Bear approach seems like a good idea, though I will try epoxying first.
It's not a lateral play issue, it has a good stack of spacers etc that have it just right on that count, though it wasnt easy to set up (cannon dale crank) but not nearly as bad as the SRAM 2013 Red which took 7 different spacers, in four types.

 

crit-boy, long posts are fine by me as long as they are informative and yours certainly is. It's partic nice to have a bit of a rundown on the aftermarket options.

I'm trying to envision the situation you had with the clicking continuing even after the delrin bits were glued in...
Is is possible they are still moving at the inteface with the carbon shell, even though at minium they have been bushed a little by the epoxy even if it didn't stick?
I suspect the reason Spesh says the epoxy isnt permanent is that it wont stick really well to delrin, even if you roughen the surface of it, which I would surely do.
I'll dig around a little and figure out what the new metal-lined setup looks like. I do know I'd like to simply have a british threaded old school on the bike but here we are.

 

I'm trying to envision the situation you had with the clicking continuing even after the delrin bits were glued in...
Is is possible they are still moving at the inteface with the carbon shell, even though at minium they have been bushed a little by the epoxy even if it didn't stick?
I suspect the reason Spesh says the epoxy isnt permanent is that it wont stick really well to delrin, even if you roughen the surface of it, which I would surely do.

The clicking did not continue. It was silent for a few weeks. Now, it is back. I think the epoxy fixed it for a small amount of time (miles).

As far as roughening the surface, I have no idea. I was told spesh put out a technical bulletin for shops to epoxy in bearings. I don't know what that document says. I believe spesh sends a particular low shear strength epoxy to use with the bb.

Roughening the surface is not necessarily better. It depends on the type of adhesive and the mechanism of adhesion. Some epoxies bond better to a smooth surface than a rough surface. I don't know how that applies or does not apply to the particular materials and epoxy in this case.

My guess with the low shear strength epoxy was to allow removal of the bb in the future.

Apparently, there is a newer fix that requires the permanent installation of alloy cups instead of delrin cups. I am a bit scared of permanently bonding alloy cups into the frame - what if it does not work? BTW, this would be spesh's 2nd fix for the same problem - epoxy delrin cups and now epoxy alloy cups.

I like my venge. Just not in like with the bb. I don't think I am the only one. If 30mm spindle and a bigger BB shell is so great, then why not make a big threaded bb?

 

crit-boy, which interface is the creaking occurring at, in your best guess? The Delrin cups to carbon interface seems more likely to me than the bearing to Delrin.
If that's so, an flexible but filling and really tenacious adhesive line 3m 5200 would be better than an epoxy. I don't care what Spesh says, an epoxy to delrin bond is always going to be suspect. Less so if you improve the mechanical nature by roughing the surface for more tooth.
Delrin has properties similar to Teflon. These aren't materials that are friendly to glue, paint, or anything else that sticks.
The bond really has to be a mechanical in enhanced by the shapes of the Deleon surface and hardened epoxy,
An example, in large scale, is the toothed central joint of a specialized or lightning crank. In short, teeth.
But if you try to create a serious bond with roughening and say a high-strength 5-to-1 epoxy you run the risk of a bond that fails anyway and leaves a mess that is hard to fix.
This may be the reason they gave up on epoxy as a fix and went to alloy.
The alloy cup fix, did you sees bulletin on that somewhere yet or was it a verbal at an LBS? I'd like to read up on that A bit....

 

There are so many posts about creaking OSBB and so many fixes [and non fixes] that I'm certain that you will find the answer you are looking for.

I agree with your opinion about epoxy but ask Specialized why they did what they did. What seems to work is the Praxis and C-Bear set ups. I do not know of any posts that says they do not work. There is no reason why you have noises, the proven answers are in other threads.

Sorry, but this is just another thread of something that has been beaten to death elsewhere.

 

It's been beaten pretty thoroughly, but in all the threads, I have never seen anyone suggest using an adhesive like 5200, which is extraordinary stuff. the bond is substantial and on boats and yachts we routinely use it to bond plastic through-hull fittings into composite hulls. It is a tad flexible which may help with what is likely a secondary problem here, the sudden shock or repeated sudden shocks breaking that not-very-flexible epoxy bond once someone tries to fix the creaking with the epoxy method.

 

The search function works great to find "buried items". The point here is that ( and its a pretty universal forum etiquette point), before you ask, try searching. Then if there is something that you can't find its fair game. But to merely ask exactly the same question thats been covered multiple times and clog up the forum serves no purpose.

 

All true, and for good reasons. That said, no matter how many threads exist, that doesn't guarantee that they cover all the relevant ground, particularly when the topic is a bit mysterious/tricky/evolving.
Some of the threads are completely useless as they are based on misunderstandings about the nature of the OP's BB... several have factory alloy shell interiors. Others figure out, after 10 posts, that what they are really talking about is the best way to convert to 24mm.
And as to those more or less on target, it looks to me like the two main solutions, epoxy for plastic cups and, in some cases, alloy replacement cups, may have issues that prevent them from working.
And now it's clear that specialized moved from advocating epoxy, to advocating epoxy and alloy together. And that STILL might not be a great answer.
And now I'm hearing something else entirely from my LBS, which thinks epoxy is a bad idea.
So the topic is evolving. If discussion of this was simply cut off in 2012, there would be little useful information. So sometimes, it's not a bad idea to boot up a long-standing topic again.

 

Thanks, that's a pretty enlightening document. The epoxy they're using, with both the alloy and delrin cups, has a pretty lengthy working time... and they note in both cases that it's important to get the crank in place before it cures to ensure the bearings are properly aligned, a crucial point, especially if someone was going to be using a standard off the shelf 5-minute epoxy. You would want to be a fast assembling mo-fo. I'd cool the 5 minute stuff down in the fridge beforehand and make sure the temp where I was working was cooler to slow it to maybe 10 minutes.
Better yet get some West epoxy with a greater open time at a local marine supply store.

I just talked with my LBS, mechanic there had a solution I havent seen in any of the forums either. He said he can get an epoxy kit in, obviously, but that he has been from the initial install, using a silicone-typle ATV sealant, which is pretty easy to find in home improvement and auto parts stores.
It gives the modest flexibility I was talking about with the 3M 5200 but is much much easier to fully remove. He said that in fact it's not a permanent solution but has worked perfectly for him because he pulls his crank about once a year to grease the BB setup properly anyway, and uses that opportunity to re-glue the cups with the ATV sealant.
The plastic cups seem like they wouldn't hold up to repeated removal, especially if much force was required, but it works for him apparently.

 

Sorry for waking up on the wrong side of the bed this week. Seems like I'm pissing off everyone.

Adding additional questions to an existing thread would help others when they have issues with the OSBB. Roadworthy [RIP] has given his all to assist others with this common issue. Although, I may not agree with all of his thoughts, he does pose some good ones. His engineering background does add thought to the mix too.

If you have looked at the specs for 3M 5200 http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...ver?mwsId=SSSSSuH8gc7nZxtU48_eoYtvevUqe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=Sealant 5200.pdf it appear that it would not hold very well and is not recommended for some plastics.

Just so that you understand, I have been in your shoes. I purchased a SW SL3 Tarmac with the carbon OSBB. Before the build, I searched endlessly about issues with the Tarmac and how to install a Campagnolo crankset. I ran across numerous threads in many different forums on what people did. It was amazing that there were so many issues and how many people attempted to resolve those issues. As the searching went on, there was a common fix for noises. A good bond, not with epoxy or any other type of adhesive. C-Bear was pretty much the guaranteed fix for my situation [Praxis was not available at the time]. I elected to use the Parlee method and it has worked for me.

At no time did I open a new thread for a common issue like noisy OSBB. All I'm suggesting is that there is a whole boatload of information and fixes that have worked for others. Why not use they're ideas and find out what works for you. Add to an existing thread since that makes searching easier for others. Some forums have poor search functions, I think RBR is not too bad [weightweenies is terrible BTW].

Again, I'm sorry for coming across not being helpful, but waiting for others to chime in when a search could give you the answer in 5 mins seems to be a lot faster [and a helpful suggestion].

 

No worries, the concerns are all justified and it may well have been better if I had revived an older thread.
And your tone is much appreciated. Civility is all too rare on forums.
Just felt like a clean start. The confusion on many of them about PF30, BB30, whether they are talking about 24mm conversion or not, what crank works, what spacers etc. just made me dyspeptic.
I worked in the engineering department of a large boat building for several years, and personally went through close to 100 tubes of 5200 and the less-permanent variants.
I assure you the 5200 will stick to that carbon surface, essentially permanently, and would stick to the delrin insert only slightly less so, particularly if it were roughed up a bit with some 100-grit.
That's really the issue in my mind, in some ways it would be more permanent than a low-shear epoxy. The epoxy, if it gave way, would remain on the carbon, and you could re-glue the cups by roughing the epoxy and using another round of whatever sealant/glue you felt appropriate. The 5200's elastic property in addition to the strength of the bond line would mean a couple of things, one that that plastic cups would likely be destroyed the next time you tried to remove them, top layer(s) of carbon may come off when you tried (obviously not a great outcome) and even if they didn't you would struggle to get all the 5200 off the inside of the shell, and so you would be left with something that, unlike hardened epoxy, would be difficult to bond anything to.
The factory kind of matte finish to the carbon inside of the shell is actually an ideal surface for 5200 bond strength... the plastic less so, but it's hellacious stuff and again would probably be on the delrin in a big way.
I'm thinking though that the ATV sealant makes more sense and if it turns out to be a mistake, it's removable. No harm, no foul.

 

OK. Please forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why not go with what is pretty well a unanimous agreed solution which is praxis or c bear? I'm not clear on your motivation for trying another method, since these are certain solutions to the problem.

 

That's actually a good question. I want to fix it tonight so I can use it for my two weekend rides.
Normally I could kind of work with the issue and wait the week and a half it would take to do the absolutely last bit of research, order one of those fixes, set aside the time to install it.
But Wednesday I had the bike out in mountains and the creak, which i had only barely begun to notice until then, rapidly became too loud to ride politely around other people and began to worry me about the amount of play involved and how it may be getting worse.
In short, I need to at least get a temporary fix in place before I can ride it. I could epoxy it, but now have come to think the ATV stuff will get me through the next week or two at least - maybe -- and I can go with something like the C-bear, or at least buy it and have it ready if the creaking returns. Or if the ATV sealant doesnt fix it in the first place...
I actually pinged the forum member above who is offering to sell me a c-bear, just waiting to hear back.

 

My Roubaix OSBB has the stock WhMan Adapters to 24mm HT-II Shimano. I put a very small diameter O-ring between the chain ring side and the adapter. It gets tightly compressed and hold the adapter tight to the bearing.

I still get a tap every once in a while, so I will put on on the other side when I find another o-ring as small. Boy that is annoying isn't it?
Maybe one of those butyl rubber bands that come on some tubes will accomplish the same.

The less ad-hock approach would be to use fine shims and make it just so perfectly tight as to abate the side play. The compression shim does the trick though.. So having no such shims and dial indicator in my tool box I go ad-hoc.

I can't help but wonder if folks using an after market BB may not get a warranty refused at some point.

 

I would think any non approved epoxy/glue would cause an warranty issue. As long as the BB does not ruin the hole, then all would be good. But Specialized has not called me about my thoughts on their warranty policies.

If you're going to warranty a creaking noise, I would think it better be stock.

As for sticking to carbon, lots of chemicals will stick. With Delrin, no so certain that much of anything will stick long term.

As for the OSBB standard to work with every crankset known to man, well if I was Specialized, that would not be my goal at all. Most of us are causing our issues. I wanted a Campy crank, Specialized said it would not work. Campy never said it would work either. So in the end, it's my fault. A problem that was resolved by smaller company's that are trying to make a couple bucks on weird people like me.

 

The frame is out of warranty now, so that's not an issue. I've stuck it to Delrin and while I cant remember a lot of detail -- Ive stuck 5200 to a lot of stuff, mainly ABS on one side and a composite on the other -- I feel pretty sure it would stick well enough to make the force required to get those flimsy cups out of the frame destroy the cups, if only by stretching them a bit.
But yeah, I'm thinking something that will stick fairly well, fill gaps well but come off both surfaces easily and clean up easily.
As to cranks, yeah, on the whole an s-works one would help, the bushings required for the cannondale and worse yet a red 2013 quarq I had in a venge, were just crazy and endlessly difficult to fine tune on installation.
In this case I wanted to use a Stages meter, so a light crank with metal arms was the ticket, but on the whole I'm not sure I would do that the same way again.

 

The frame is in warranty as Specialized provides a limited lifetime warranty. Take it back to your dealer.

 

No, it's out of warranty because I'm the second owner. It was unused when I bought it, but first owner ordered it and then decided on something else before even building it up... a weird situation that I don't fully understand myself.
It's OK, I'm comfortable with adhesives etc. It's not a major issue, in the sense that it seems solvable. I hope.

 

rcb78 recommended this awhile back and it's worked for me. Use Loctite 609 with primer 7649. Just make sure your contact surfaces are extremely clean. I've used this on my Allez and S-works Venge and have not had a creak since. I ride them weekly for about a year now.

 

Ended up using RTV silicone for a short-term fix as LBS recommended that, it makes sense and will come out and clean up OK.... Creaking has stopped, but I don't know that I trust it for a long term fix so I have the C-Bear alloy cup setup en route thanks to a poster on this thread... so these threads really can be helpful.

 

Greetings, I have an S-Works Roubaix SL4 with the carbon BB shell. Original cranks were S-Works ones but have since changed to DuraAce cranks and straight off the bat used a Praxis adaptor because I didn't want any hassles with creaks or clicks etc.
Well I've had the new cranks for around 18 months and have had some sort of noise for the majority of the time. It comes and goes to some degree but is there most of the time. It seems crank/ BB related as it happens at the 12 - 1 o'clock position of the right crank, every pedal stroke once I get to around 200w of power. Every nut, bolt, skewer and hanger on the bike has been greased and torqued to within an inch of it's life but the noise still remains. If I pull the Praxis BB out and grease the hell out of everything the noise quietens down for a ride or two (another reason why I think it's the BB) but then comes back. Something I have noticed is that the fit between BB shell and the Delrin cups/ Praxis adaptor seems very loose. The cups I can push in by hand and the Praxis I can push in and out by hand. Even when the Praxis BB is installed and tightened down until it bottoms out internally (engineered/ mechanical stop within the Praxis BB) the BB can still be spun within the shell by using a BB spanner on one side so it does not seem anywhere tight enough (or the tolerance on the carbon shell is way out).

Just wondering if anyone else has seen a carbon BB shell that allows such easy movement of a Praxis type adaptor when installed? I suspect the click is coming from either the BB shell / Delrin interface or the Delrin / Praxis interface. Thinking about at least gluing the cups into the frame.

 

Hi Tm,
You have identified your problem by your explanation as it turns out. So good news there. You have many options, but you need to change your set up ASAP as you don't want to ride the bike the way it is. Your Praxis sleeve is moving within the delrin bushings under power which you suspect. I will try to keep this brief.

1. There is a dimensional difference between the bushings provided with your Roubaix Sworks from the factory...wonderful bike btw...and the bushings provided by Praxis that are supposed to be use for a Spesh carbon OSBB and their sleeve. If you suspect that your Praxis sleeve was installed without companion Praxis bushings designed for 61m wide OSBB, then that is your issue.

2. But lets say, you did use the Praxis bushings in replacement of the factory Spesh bushings in the bike BB shell, then your issue is a low side tolerance stack up of parts...easily resolved. All you need to do is remove the Praxis BB and shim the axial width with a 1mm spacer or two such that when you torque the two Praxis sides against one another, the torque applied translates to lateral pressure to immobilize the Praxis sleeve under load.

So first you need to address whether you are using the proper Praxis bushings designed for Spesh'es OSBB. If you are, send them an email and tell them the width of your BB is such you are getting no lateral retention of the sleeve when cups are torqued to spec. They will likely send you new bushings...and btw you could even create a 42mm ID/46mm OD shim from cutting the skirt off of an existing bushing. Also ask them if any media should be applied between frame and bushing(s) and bushings and sleeve, eg. antiseize, grease or Loctite.

Let me know if that makes sense. This is easily resolved with a small amount of diligence.

 

Hi 11spd, thank you for your prompt and detailed reply. I will contact the local Praxis distributor in the morning to see what they say.

I didn't install the BB originally, my LBS did, however I specifically ordered the OSBB one and the Delrin sleeves that I have installed, visually at least, looks exactly the same as on the Praxis website for the OSBB install.

As part of the install there is a thin o-ring that needs to be installed on the non drive side, but they very specifically say not to compress this o-ring, it should just touch.

The idea of the machined stop within the praxis adaptor is meant to set the exact BB width when tightened down. Would inserting an extra spacer into the width effect the ability to tighten the BB to the correct width/ spec?

I cannot feel any freeplay laterally or in any other direction by trying to move the BB by itself or when the cranks are attached other than still being able to spin the adaptor within the shell (by using a single spanner, not by hand). It is almost as if the BB shell diameter is ever so slightly larger than it should be and the Praxis collet when expanded cannot apply enough pressure to hold itself still.

i'm not exactly sure how you are describing to make a shim from an existing bushing. Are you saying just to make a spacer by cutting off the larger external to the BB ring or something different?

BTW - I do still have the original bearings still seated in the original bushings from when I had the BB replaced, so I know the old bushings werent reused at least.

Tim

 

I am heading out for my morning group ride and will respond with some clarity that may help when I return. Meanwhile, send an email to Praxis explaining how you can easily rotate the Praxis sleeve when torqued in place by using simple torque applied to a Shimano spanner. No, radial clearance aka slip fit isn't your issue. The Praxis BB relies on lateral interference to keep it snug when fully torqued by design. It comes down to tolerance stack up of mating parts. I will talk more when I can.
PS: ask Praxis tech support in your email if using a two O-rings in tandem would be a workable solution to increase lateral interference to immobilize the sleeve under pedal load.

 

I'm pretty sure the praxis relies on radial interference to hold since as you screw it together the collet expands to provide an interference fit against the shell. If you use spacers as suggested, you will be converting this to a lateral interference and relying on the integrity of the shim to hold. It might work but that's not the praxis design.

 

I'm pretty sure the praxis relies on radial interference to hold since as you screw it together the collet expands to provide an interference fit against the shell. If you use spacers as suggested, you will be converting this to a lateral interference and relying on the integrity of the shimano to hold. It might work but that's not the praxis design.

That was my understanding of how the Praxis collet system works. Obviously with the engineered stop within the Praxis sleeve the collet is only designed to expand so far as the stop is designed to ensure an exact width as per Shimano spec. Mine doesnt feel like it expands far enough before it bottoms out, or the BB shell has a slightly too bigger diameter.

 

Have you checked the threads on the praxis. Perhaps there's debris that's binding them up before reaching the stop.

 

I haven't checked the threads closely, although I have cleaned them a few times when regreasing and trying to fix this. Will check them again but when tightening it does feel like a fairly definite stop rather than just getting harder. It feels like the drive side either doesn't screw in far enough (as you suggest) or the collet doesn't expand enough.

 

I would agree that the enduro torqtite is probably your best bet. It's just s bit pricey because the tools are extra. However you get angular contact bearings which are superior to the regular ones in the praxis anyhow.
But I would check the praxis threads first before investing in a new bb.
Note that praxis specifies antiseize on these threads because of the bind up concern.

 

Thanks for the replies MMsRepBike and goodboyr, I'll have a look at the enduro and let you know how I go.

cheers

edit, and yes, I have installed with grease and anti seize where required as per the Praxis install guide, and video, and anything else I could to try and find about installing them. The fact that I can push everytihng in by hand suggests to me that the BB shell is probably out of spec as mentioned.

 

Good luck Tm...will let the other guys direct you away from Praxis. The Praxis sleeve is probably the most reliable BB in the industry and your problem resolution is simple...lol.

 

Just offering a few alternatives compared to a workaround. Not sure why that would be a problem, "11 speed".....

 

First, I want to credit you. You are right about radial interference being the major factor holding the Praxis BB in place. My reference was prior to torqueing the sleeve...its a slip fit to the bushings. I was a bit rushed and I should have been more clear. As it turns out...it is both planes that retain the sleeve. That is the purpose of the O-ring. When torqueing the sleeve to lock out, the O-ring is compressed which puts a lateral force on the sleeve and that lateral force is supplemental to the radial force which restrains the sleeve.

Unlike the other poster's rush to judgment about what isn't in compliance dimensionally...Praxis' calculation is based upon mfging tolerance and yes Tm's frame 46mm carbon OSBB may be 'high side' of tolerance....but his comment throwing Specialized under the bus for 'junk' is absurd....it maybe that Praxis' bushings are low side or even out of tolerance.

The point is, there is nothing wrong with Tm's part mix....in fact, its one of the best part combos in the industry...Spesh bike, Praxis BB and DA crank...doesn't get much better. What is wrong is his tolerance stack....certainly radially and perhaps horizontally. For example, adding a simple supplemental O-ring may increase horizontal compression enough to quiet the sleeve even though horizontal compression isn't the principle retaining force..but clearly a contributing factor to immobilizing the sleeve.

That is why an email to Praxis...a company with excellent product support is the best recipe. This will reveal Tm's best recourse and likely not cost him a nickel.

What will Praxis say?
a. they may even have slightly high side of tolerance bushings to send to Tm free of charge. For example the shrink rate of the bushings may have been miscalculated by their sub supplier and they realized this error and will ship out replacement bushings free of charge.
b. They may know about this issue and it is easily resolved by shimming the sleeve radially. There are many ways to do this...locally to induce a stress riser or even wrapping the sleeve with a single or two plies of Teflon tape or something else Praxis may send them. They may even suggest carbon paste to increase friction to keep it in place....or simply add another O-ring as mentioned because the sleeve is isolated by two planes of compression.

In summary, I am certain it can be made dead quiet with little trouble...just needs to be shimmed or use another bushing set with higher compression.

My thoughts.