Your mechanic...

is certainly not an engineer of any type. Obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. You can place the sadddle anywhere you want from all the way forward to all the way back and it won't hurt a thing. As for the rail material, carbon is more susceptible to clamping damage than any metal. Even if a rail broke, what would happen? The saddle would still be clamped in place, it would just wiggle around a bit.

Have you picked a favorite from these three saddles? I've only tried the Gobi, since it felt so good, I quit looking at any other.

 

Position trumps everything else

I agree with C-40 on this one. Consider the following:

1) The engineers that worked on these saddle designs must know that they are just fine to set-up as you have. Otherwise, they would not have designed them so it is possible to clamp them in this manner, i.e. they would have made the rails shorter.

2) If they did break what would really happen. The broken rail would bend and you would limp home. Most likely Fizik would give you a new saddle under warrentee.

3) At 150, you are pretty light (this is a good thing). The chances of you breaking most anything is a lot less than an “almost-clyde” like me. I have an sl-220 seatpost and run the saddle all the way back on the rails. This set-up has been rock solid for me

4) I assume that you require this much setback to get comfortable on the bike. Is your mechanic really suggesting that you compromise your position on the bike? My advice is to do what you need to get comfortable on the bike and not worry about what your mechanic says about it. As long as the seatpost is inserted past the minimum insertion line you should be just fine.

 

this is great news

thank you both very much!

my LBS mechanic is not engineer and was not suggesting I compromise my position, he was just concerned.

C-40, thanks to your advice I bought Gobi last week but only tried it for short ~15min ride so far, it does look like a promising saddle based on that, it is almost as comfortable as my Aliante (a bit less so) but it is ~15mm longer, it is almost as long as Arione and I do require more length to slide further back behind BB. So your saddle suggestion seems to be right on the money! If you like your Gobi you might also like Aliante, it is a bit wider (12mm more) but is shorter and the nose section is quite useless i.e. on Aliante you can not really move off the sweet spot. If you like it, it is the best, else look elsewhere. I really think Fizik is one of the best makers of road saddles today - they cover almost every type of "butt". Even Arione is ok for me but not quite as good as Gobi and Aliante. I do not trust carbon rails much, I just dont have a good gut feeling about them but I am not engineer. I even worry about riding a carbon frame! 8^)

to change to related topic:

C-40 - how do you level your Gobi for best comfort? do you set is completely level from nose to tail? I have a carpenter level and a dial protractor (angle measuring device) so I can set it any which way accurately. I place a ruler on the top os the saddle, nose to tail. On Aliante I like it 2-3 degrees nose-up best. On Arione it needs to be either 0 (level) or 1 degree nose up. Literally. On Gobi, I am not sure yet.

 

adjusting the Gobi...

I use a small "torpedo" level, place the end on the tail of the saddle, hold the level in a horizontal (level) position and adjust the nose so it's about 1cm lower that the tail (the bike must be sitting level too). This creates a low spot somewhere in the middle.

When I gradually raised my saddle about 1cm this year, I had to readjust the nose down a bit more. That's why I always have a 2-bolt seatpost clamp. All it took was 1/4-1/2 turn looser on the back bolt and the same amount tighter on the front to correct the angle.

 

Mine broke

Greetings all

my trusted LBS mechanic expressed a possible *safety concern* regarding my saddle placement on the set-back seat-post. My have all my saddles mounted *all the way back* on their metal (Ti) rails to achieve the maximum set-back possible (I use FSA 35mm setback seat-posts, SL-220 and K-Force Lite Carbon).

I have 3 Fizik saddles that I use on both of my road bikes - Aliante Ti, Arione Ti and Gobi Ti rails. All saddle are shoved as far back as their rails/clamps allow.

I weigh ~150 pounts (~70kg, ready to ride).

Should I be concerned? Would carbon saddle-rails make any positive or negative difference?

Thanks in advance

I owned a Selle Italia SLR with Ti rails set up exactly the way you discribed. The saddle rail broke after about 8 months of use. Bummed me out as I thought the seat was really comfortable. I weigh 175 pounds.

 

I know another guy with broke SI Flite Ti rails

I owned a Selle Italia SLR with Ti rails set up exactly the way you discribed. The saddle rail broke after about 8 months of use. Bummed me out as I thought the seat was really comfortable. I weigh 175 pounds.

I know of a person at ~same weight as you (~74kg), he broke his early model Ti rails on SI saddle. Do you know if your broken SLR saddle rails were hollow inside or solid Ti?

I read, recently, that Fizik uses solid Ti rails on their saddles because they said hollow Ti rails do save some weight but at expense of strength.

I have had my Aliante Ti rails all the way back for about 5000 miles so far. No problems to report so far. Arione Ti is the same but only done about 2000 miles in full-aft rails position.

 

thanks C-40

I use a small "torpedo" level, place the end on the tail of the saddle, hold the level in a horizontal (level) position and adjust the nose so it's about 1cm lower that the tail (the bike must be sitting level too). This creates a low spot somewhere in the middle.

When I gradually raised my saddle about 1cm this year, I had to readjust the nose down a bit more. That's why I always have a 2-bolt seatpost clamp. All it took was 1/4-1/2 turn looser on the back bolt and the same amount tighter on the front to correct the angle.

I have same FSA seat-posts (K-force carbon and SL220 with 35mm set-back). This is good to know. Thanks again C-40!

Now, I do not presume to tell you anything new but the text below is what I have learnt and what has worked for me because I could not find comfortable saddle for 1-2 years.

re saddle levelling, (this may not apply for TT/Tri saddle set-up which are often nose down).

the wisdom I read is that the modern saddles are designed to be more or less level, when you place a full length ruler from saddle nose to tail with bike being 100% level. If your saddle is more than ~3 degrees nose up or nose down, so I am told, then it is likely that it is your saddle height that needs to be adjusted not the saddle tilt. In fact Andy Pruitt talks about it in his latest book.

So, for example, if you like your Gobi nose down ~5-7 degrees (just example) then perhaps you can consider levelling it and instead to lower/raise the saddle height to achieve the same real height. The theory behind it is that with a saddle more level you might find yourself more stable on it whilst pedalling. It might also stop you from creeping forward etc. Might be worth a try if you have not done it already.

Once again, this is just my personal experience, nothing more.

 

I can vouch for the integrity of the ti-railed fizik arione saddles. i had a nice yellow/silver one on my bike when i hit an unmarked speed bump just around a corner in a park i was riding in. i was launched over the bars and the bike launched over me. it went high enough and long enough that i stopped rolling and flailing in time to see it land upside down/saddle first before it skittled down the road. the seat cover and material were obviously mangled and the shell was cracked badly. the ti rails held up well enough to only get twisted around and break their mounts into the seat's undershell. my seatpost clamp was deformed slightly, but the seat rails remained intact. i was able to ride it home - uncomfortably - but it got me home without having to stand for 15 miles.

PS - my limar helmet saved my life on that one......

aaron

 

I know of a person at ~same weight as you (~74kg), he broke his early model Ti rails on SI saddle. Do you know if your broken SLR saddle rails were hollow inside or solid Ti?

I read, recently, that Fizik uses solid Ti rails on their saddles because they said hollow Ti rails do save some weight but at expense of strength.

I have had my Aliante Ti rails all the way back for about 5000 miles so far. No problems to report so far. Arione Ti is the same but only done about 2000 miles in full-aft rails position.

I believe mine were hollow.

 

You ever thought about getting a longer stem?

 

Why so much set back?

I wonder why you need to set your saddle way back? Does your frame have a forward STA (like 74o). Sounds more like a fitting problem than a saddle problem. Greg LeMond rode with his saddle pushed way back (like 11cm from center of BB), but he had exceptional strength in his hips and upper thighs and long femurs. I found if I go too far back my it affects my spin. How far back is your saddle (center of BB to nose of saddle?)
Mine is about 7cm.

 

yep

Why so much set back?

I wonder why you need to set your saddle way back? Does your frame have a forward STA (like 74o). Sounds more like a fitting problem than a saddle problem. Greg LeMond rode with his saddle pushed way back (like 11cm from center of BB), but he had exceptional strength in his hips and upper thighs and long femurs. I found if I go too far back my it affects my spin. How far back is your saddle (center of BB to nose of saddle?)
Mine is about 7cm.

yes, i have a 74 degree STA (Madone 54cm) and relatively long femurs in relation to other parts on my body. the more forward i move the more top heavy i become. the problem is less pronounced if i move as far back as possible. hence i have FSA 35mm set-back seatpost and long saddle. i just bought a new bicycle with a 73 STA (i.e. another 10mm further back behind BB) but it is too early to say if it will fix my fit issue or not. i remain optimistic.

the professional fitter who measured me prescribed for me 72.5 STA so I am only 0.5 degree (5mm) off that which I am making up with long saddle and maximum set-back seat-post. and as C-40 said, I need to work on my core and flexibility as well.

everyone is different, i have two riding buddies who like their saddles very forward on their rails.

re prior "longer stem" question - this is a solution for reach, not for weight balance and centre of cyclist gravity which revolves more around the BB area. But yes, I tried longer stem early on, sadly, not the answer. Right now I am using 100mm stem, I can ride 110mm but not quite as comfortable (since I sit far back).

 

I can get complicated....I'm 6-0 have a 35.0 cycling inseam and ride a 59 Colnago with a 56.9 TT. I have problems with the TT as my torso is short. I gradually pushed my saddle back over the years and went to a longer stem (11 from a 10). I find it's more about balance. The perfect saddle for me was a San Marco Aspide. I could set it dead center in the middle of it's rails with a Thomson layback seatpost. However, I fractured by hip late last year and I now need a saddle that is wider and offers more support. Another thing to consider is your cleat position, as your rear is connected to your feet when you ride.

On the other hand I have a Klein with a 74o ST and the seatpost is stuck in the ST as I did a stupid thing and painted the seat post years ago. I can't move my saddle up or down and the only adjustment I can make is with the fore or aft. But this bike never gives me any problems, accept for the TT being a little bit too long.

I think some of us are always messing with our position and looking for that magic spot. I find mine quite frequently, then try something else and I end up screwing everything up again.

They say Merckx was one of the types that was always messing with his position.

 

my saddle set-back to BB centre

Why so much set back?

I wonder why you need to set your saddle way back? Does your frame have a forward STA (like 74o). Sounds more like a fitting problem than a saddle problem. Greg LeMond rode with his saddle pushed way back (like 11cm from center of BB), but he had exceptional strength in his hips and upper thighs and long femurs. I found if I go too far back my it affects my spin. How far back is your saddle (center of BB to nose of saddle?)
Mine is about 7cm.

More info.

on my Time Edge (size 53cm ST, 54cm TT, Small) the set-back (using Fizik saddle) from centre of BB to nose of saddle is 9.5cm, give or take 2mm. Time Edge has a 73 degree STA. On Madone with a 74 degree STA I therefore assume it is about ~10mm less i.e. ~8.5cm. It is hard to measure assurately on Madone but on Time Edge the BB centre is stamped on the top of the top tube.

I do not now how to measure the femur length accurately but I suspect I have relatively long femurs in proportion to my cycling inseam (83cm cycling inseam). I know that I measured my KOPS a few months ago, on the trainer, and with current saddle/seatpost set-back all maxed-out, I am only 10-15mm behind KOPS, if not less.

I use 172.5mm cranks and now wondering if with long femurs I should be using 175mm cranks instead. And I know I should be working on my core strength too.

 

too much setback...

I can understand the desire for enough setback to reach KOP, but why go 10-15mm further back? I've got the same 83cm cycling inseam, with a 73cm saddle height. The most setback I've ever used is 6.5cm and now I use a more normal 4.5cm.

While long femurs may be an excuse to move the saddle way back, weight balance over the saddle is not. You don't need that much setback to be balanced over the saddle. I've got no excessive weight on my hands with only 4.5cm of setback and with 6.5cm the weight on my hands was really light. I'll bet the front to rear weight balance of the wheels on your bike is a bit screwy. I certainly know that the handling on my bike is better on mountain descents with 45% of the weight on the front. I'll bet yours is down to 40% or less on the front wheel.

 

You ever thought about getting a longer stem?

Wouldn't increasing stem length and moving the saddle forward change your position relative to the pedals?

 

I read, recently, that Fizik uses solid Ti rails on their saddles because they said hollow Ti rails do save some weight but at expense of strength.
.

Fizik does make some saddles with "reinforced tubular titanium" rails. I'm under the impression that tubular rails are hollow. Fizik has used the term "reinforcement" before (the Arione is carbon reinforced), but I'm not exactly sure how they reinforce the rails (or the saddle shell on the Arione).

 

I hear you C-40

I can understand the desire for enough setback to reach KOP, but why go 10-15mm further back? I've got the same 83cm cycling inseam, with a 73cm saddle height. The most setback I've ever used is 6.5cm and now I use a more normal 4.5cm.

While long femurs may be an excuse to move the saddle way back, weight balance over the saddle is not. You don't need that much setback to be balanced over the saddle. I've got no excessive weight on my hands with only 4.5cm of setback and with 6.5cm the weight on my hands was really light. I'll bet the front to rear weight balance of the wheels on your bike is a bit screwy. I certainly know that the handling on my bike is better on mountain descents with 45% of the weight on the front. I'll bet yours is down to 40% or less on the front wheel.

I may not have been too clear. I am not trying to use my femurs as excuse. And I no longer believe in KOPS or any other static formulas because I tried them all and for me they made things worse and caused injuries. I kept on injuring myself using KOPS and using saddle height formulas and stem length rules of thumb etc. So now I am simply listening to my own body which is telling me that moving back is more comfortable and I feel much more stable on the bicycle at the same time. I used to have the sort of setback you are referring to (~6-7cm) and had nothing but troubles in upper body, I was so darn top-heavy that I could not even take one hand off the bars to signal. I am 174cm tall, a few cm taller than you C-40 (same inseam) but I doubt that even my height has much to do with it. My core sucks and perhaps this is the reason but something tells me it is not just the core strength but my dynamic position on the bicycle. Which is why I now cycle-fit "by the seat of my pants" and the end results are better.

 

acid rider, how is the madone compared to the time edge frame?

 

I now cycle-fit "by the seat of my pants" and the end results are better.

To quote a famous Chinese military tactician. "Knowing thyself is the key to victory."

 

too early to be conclusive but

acid rider, how is the madone compared to the time edge frame?

this is based on one 140km ride (85 miles?). Not conclusive!

My back was more comfortable during and after the ride on Time. On Madone I am typically ok for the first 2/3 of the distance and then I get noticably tired in my lower back and my upper body area and I tend to spend about 60% of my time on Madone on the bar tops (this is a relatively flat road that I ride).

Time (size 53cm, Small) has 1 degree slacker (73) STA and 72 HTA versus 74 STA and 73 STA on Madone 54cm. This makes it more deliberate handler and more relaxed.

The time is like French cars (Citroen, Peugeot) - soft, compliant, comfortable, feels like it has suspension. Madone is like a German/Swedish car - Benz, Audi, Saab - stiff, solid, no nonsense. Both are comfortable but ride very different. Sold appear to be high quality and integrity.

I weigh 67kg (145-150lbs) so in size Small on Time or Madone I am not about to test the flex. And I am not Robbie McEwen either!

Madone would be (in right hands) a faster crit bicycle, I suspect. Time would take the edge (get it? Edge?) off on longer rides with less sharp corners. In my case I bought Time for more relaxed geometry in STA and HTA. The wheelbase is not much different but Madone chainstay is a bit longer. Both bikes have 100 mm stem. Madone has 5mm longer TT.

Time has a much taller head tube (~25mm taller) which means I run 30mm of spacers and -8 degree stem with no problems. On Madone it is 40mm spacer and a 0-degree stem to maintain same 25mm (1 inch) saddle to bar drop. And I could drop 5mm spacers on Time if I wanted to (it has alloy steerer anyhow) or even get a -6 degree stem or even Newton 31-86 -4 degree stem or flip the stem - you get the idea. This is a problem with Madone - short seat and head tubes (no slope in TT) - lots of spacers for many riders. If Madone fits you - it is terrific, else, look elsewhere. I wanted to buy a Look 565 but alas its 73.75 STA is not far from Madone. Only R3 Cervelo has 73 STA but I hear that C-40 did not like it much (although many others do).

PS I started working on my core, in any case.