[Hellgate64]

The correct answer is always Campy.

 

[unalteu]

Thanks guys.. appreciate your answers

 

[GKSki]

The Sciroccos are industrial sealed bearing hubs whereas I think the next Campy model up, the Zonda uses adjustable balls and cups. Could be that you're just not happy with the rolling friction of the Sciroccos.

 

[hummina shadeeba]

youre not going to notice the difference between cassette bearings vs ball if they're not crap bearings or adjusted wrong

 

[unalteu]

The Sciroccos are industrial sealed bearing hubs whereas I think the next Campy model up, the Zonda uses adjustable balls and cups. Could be that you're just not happy with the rolling friction of the Sciroccos.

Yes..that is very possible one of the other factors.
The spindle of the easton is very smooth and even free rols when spinned whereas the campy are significantly more tight and "compact".

 

[GKSki]

youre not going to notice the difference between cassette bearings vs ball if they're not crap bearings or adjusted wrong

Completely disagree. The inside surface of the cartridge bearing wears laterally requiring adjustments periodically until the friction increases. Of course if you replace the cartridges, you get back to start.

 

[hummina shadeeba]

? you cant adjust cartridge bearings or maybe you can on some wheels but wheel bearings or any bearings on the bike...if theyre spinning smoothly and there's no play youre not going to notice a difference and there wont be any way you would perceive a difference even with some super sensor of any type i believe. (although bb bearings are getting worse). bearing friction is minute.

 

[GKSki]

? you cant adjust cartridge bearings or maybe you can on some wheels but wheel bearings or any bearings on the bike...if theyre spinning smoothly and there's no play youre not going to notice a difference and there wont be any way you would perceive a difference even with some super sensor of any type i believe. (although bb bearings are getting worse). bearing friction is minute.

I agree with you on properly adjusted, good condition, bearings working the same, however what I am saying is that the wear on the cartridge bearing area around the "cone" does wear down requiring tightening and that's where the additional friction kicks in. Replace the cartridge bearings and with the "cone nuts" in good shape or also replaced, and you're back to square one comparing favorably with a cup and cone hub.

 

[nova_rider]

It is true while cartridge bearings can't be adjusted, they can be preloaded. Most Campy wheels do have preload adjustment to reduce any lateral play. If this is not correctly set, it can result in added friction and premature bearing wear. If it feels tight, then it should be checked.

 

[Lombard]

I like loose balls that aren't stuffed inside a cartridge.

 

[Kerry Irons]

maybe but i suspect the data you tell relates to a consistent grade and consistent effort from the rider. even if in a time trial if the course makes the rider change their speed they're going to accelerate over hills or out of turns. throw in other riders in a paceline and youre accelerating repeatedly. that easy and quick spin up of a wheel the OP speaks of is appreciated by all bike snobs.

Once again your failure to understand physics is tripping you up. Yes, lighter wheels spin up faster. They also slow down faster when you coast or reduce power input. It's called the flywheel effect. Due to conservation of energy, repeated accelerations are not an issue unless they are followed by repeated application of the brakes where the energy put into the wheel is then turned into heat. If you don't apply the brakes, then the energy is conserved and light wheels are no different than less water in your bottle. Repeated simulations by many different sources as well as field tests show that except for a ride that is only uphill and slow, aero wheels are faster. The fastest wheels on the planet will save you 3-4 minutes per 100 miles at 20 mph. That said, they are also more unstable in crosswinds so they may not be the best overall choice for most riders.

 

[hummina shadeeba]

Yes the wheel works as a flywheel but you don’t get to store that energy and release it at will. If you are braking at all that stored energy is lost and the lighter wheel will allow you to get back up to speed with less effort as is obvious but even if you never used your brakes and you’re in a race/ride with others,or the course has turns or dips, the rider wants to do accelerations and that will happen more slowly with a heavy wheel and once they finally get a heavier wheel up to speed it may be too late.

aero wheels are an advantage and I’m not discounting that. I am telling that a light set of wheels also has advantages. They don’t make them light just so u can lift your bike with your pinky.

But you hopefully have come round and realize a bike going off a jump is converting it’s kinetic energy to potential.

 

[Kerry Irons]

Yes the wheel works as a flywheel but you don’t get to store that energy and release it at will. If you are braking at all that stored energy is lost and the lighter wheel will allow you to get back up to speed with less effort as is obvious but even if you never used your brakes and you’re in a race/ride with others,or the course has turns or dips, the rider wants to do accelerations and that will happen more slowly with a heavy wheel and once they finally get a heavier wheel up to speed it may be too late.

aero wheels are an advantage and I’m not discounting that. I am telling that a light set of wheels also has advantages. They don’t make them light just so u can lift your bike with your pinky.

But you hopefully have come round and realize a bike going off a jump is converting it’s kinetic energy to potential.

You release that stored energy every time you back off on pedaling effort. It's simple physics.

And please don't continue to show your ignorance of physics. If the speed of the bike doesn't change, then it's kinetic energy doesn't change. If a bike does a "Wiley Coyote" and goes off a cliff, it now has potential energy because the reference point (ground level) changed, not because its KE is converted to PE. It is the most basic of physical facts.

 

[hummina shadeeba]

It is the most basic of physical facts.

everytime you stop pedaling youre releasing the stored energy in the spinning bike wheel is true and i never disagreed with that. read what i wrote hard and repeatedly: every time someone has to accelerate with a heavy wheel they have to accelerate a greater amount than if they have a lighter wheel. its simple physics. are you going to disagree with THAT?

And please dont change the question if youre trying to display your knowledge of physics and no one is talking about going off a cliff, but when going off a jump will a bike convert its kinetic energy to potential is the question.
two questions for you, again, lets see if you can answer directly and then we will know who knows the most basic of physics.

 

[Kerry Irons]

everytime you stop pedaling youre releasing the stored energy in the spinning bike wheel is true and i never disagreed with that. read what i wrote hard and repeatedly: every time someone has to accelerate with a heavy wheel they have to accelerate a greater amount than if they have a lighter wheel. its simple physics. are you going to disagree with THAT?

And please dont change the question if youre trying to display your knowledge of physics and no one is talking about going off a cliff, but when going off a jump will a bike convert its kinetic energy to potential is the question.
two questions for you, again, lets see if you can answer directly and then we will know who knows the most basic of physics.

Your ability to address only one side of these questions is stunning. As I stated before, the heavier wheel takes more energy to accelerate, and it gives that energy back when you back off pedaling effort. What it seems you are trying to argue is that somehow the additional energy required to accelerate the heavier wheel is somehow lost. If it is not lost, then what is the penalty you attribute to the heavier wheel?

If the speed of the bike when it is still on the ground (not yet left the jump) is the same as it is just after it leaves the jump, then it CANNOT have converted kinetic energy to potential energy. Are you somehow arguing that at the point of leaving the ground the bike instantaneously slows down and that this slowing liberates KE? My "going off a cliff" example simply serves to explain that if there is no change in bike speed, then the KE is unchanged. And yet, because the "ground reference" has changed, the bike now has potential energy that it did not have just before the ground fell away. That new potential energy is not in any way related to the speed of the bike changing.

 

[hummina shadeeba]

If u ride a 8000 gram set of wheels in a bike race even going up a hill the weight is detrimental. Yes the energy in the spun-up wheel isn’t lost but the rider doesn’t get to control when it is released. Riders in pace lines drafting or even being paced up a mountain...there’s value in being able to alter speed quickly and a heavy set of wheels are detrimental to that goal. My point was to question your numbers related to how much a heavy set of wheels slows you down going up a mountain as I doubt they’re taking this into account, no? Maybe if u went up a mountain with consistent output the whole time, which does happen sometimes, your numbers would apply, but that is rare and I imagine you benefit from not doing that even if riding solo. Attacking hills getting momentum, or building speed when cresting seemingly have advantages and a rider has reserves of power that can be spent at will for advantage.


Every slight bump in the road, If it is enough to make your mass go up, as they do, that is converting kinetic to potential energy. You have to come down again. There is energy stored in your raised mass. Going off a cliff shows you had gravitational potential energy to begin with.

 

[Kerry Irons]

If u ride a 8000 gram set of wheels in a bike race even going up a hill the weight is detrimental. Yes the energy in the spun-up wheel isn’t lost but the rider doesn’t get to control when it is released. Riders in pace lines drafting or even being paced up a mountain...there’s value in being able to alter speed quickly and a heavy set of wheels are detrimental to that goal. My point was to question your numbers related to how much a heavy set of wheels slows you down going up a mountain as I doubt they’re taking this into account, no? Maybe if u went up a mountain with consistent output the whole time, which does happen sometimes, your numbers would apply, but that is rare and I imagine you benefit from not doing that even if riding solo. Attacking hills getting momentum, or building speed when cresting seemingly have advantages and a rider has reserves of power that can be spent at will for advantage.


Every slight bump in the road, If it is enough to make your mass go up, as they do, that is converting kinetic to potential energy. You have to come down again. There is energy stored in your raised mass. Going off a cliff shows you had gravitational potential energy to begin with.

I'll repeat this until you understand it. When you are climbing, weight is weight. It makes no difference whether it is in your wheels, your water bottle, or your gut. Any accelerations or decelerations store or recover energy in the rotating wheels, and they cancel.

Your comparison to bumps in the road has nothing to do with your previous argument that kinetic energy is converted to potential energy when a bike goes off a jump. You have zero potential energy UNTIL the ground reference changes. An object sitting on the ground does not have potential energy just because some day somebody could dig a hole under it.

Face it. Physics is not your area of understanding.

 

[hummina shadeeba]

ill repeat again until you understand it: if youre riding with other people or even not with other people theres accelerations and decelerations which you need to keep in time with. you dont get to tell everyone "hold on for my 3000 gram wheel while i wind it up". This is forgetting any braking, which will be a greater loss of energy for a heavy wheel. do you think pro riders just havent seen your data otherwise they wouldnt bother riding light wheels? what you presented was a comparison of a light vs heavy wheel in which the rider would supply a consistent output the whole time right? how often does that happen?

weight is not just weight on a bike and rotational weight is harder to accelerate.

yes anything on the ground has gravitation potential energy and if you dig a hole and drop it in it's transferred to kinetic. how else would you explain the energy produced from anything dropping anywhere? everything on earth has gravitational potential energy and regardless of if you dig a hole or find a cliff and drop off..its now kinetic.

bumps in the road are micro jumps. same thing. you are lifted and energy is transferred from kinetic to potential and back again as you descend. impedance losses are related to the rider going up and down as the visuals here show: Understanding Rolling Resistance & Impedance For Cyclists – FLO Cycling

 

[Kerry Irons]

ill repeat again until you understand it: if youre riding with other people or even not with other people theres accelerations and decelerations which you need to keep in time with. you dont get to tell everyone "hold on for my 3000 gram wheel while i wind it up". This is forgetting any braking, which will be a greater loss of energy for a heavy wheel. do you think pro riders just havent seen your data otherwise they wouldnt bother riding light wheels? what you presented was a comparison of a light vs heavy wheel in which the rider would supply a consistent output the whole time right? how often does that happen?

weight is not just weight on a bike and rotational weight is harder to accelerate.

yes anything on the ground has gravitation potential energy and if you dig a hole and drop it in it's transferred to kinetic. how else would you explain the energy produced from anything dropping anywhere? everything on earth has gravitational potential energy and regardless of if you dig a hole or find a cliff and drop off..its now kinetic.

bumps in the road are micro jumps. same thing. you are lifted and energy is transferred from kinetic to potential and back again as you descend. impedance losses are related to the rider going up and down as the visuals here show: Understanding Rolling Resistance & Impedance For Cyclists – FLO Cycling

I know you keep putting up these preposterous straw man arguments because you think you can win, but exactly who is riding a 3 KG wheel set? Or maybe the 8KG wheels you proposed before? The differences of a couple hundred grams are not going to spit you out the back, and again, when the speed comes down, you get the energy back.

Your "kinetic energy is converted to potential energy when going off a jump" still holds no water. But that doesn't bother you a bit, does it.

 

[hummina shadeeba]

Yes, lighter wheels will feel more agile - it takes less energy to spin them up and to throw the bike from side to side. They also slow down faster (less flywheel effect) when you coast. Whether that "feeling" translates in any way to improved performance is an open question.

Id like to see you show up to a crit with an 8 pound wheelset and tell everyone it’s an "open question" as to if there's any performance advantages from a lighter set of wheels.

An object sitting on the ground does not have potential energy just because some day somebody could dig a hole under it.

yes it does. What if we dug a tunnel through the Earth? (phys.org)

Your "kinetic energy is converted to potential energy when going off a jump" still holds no water. But that doesn't bother you a bit, does it.

you dont answer questions but here's an easy one:
youre going 40mph at the base of a jump. At the top of the jump youre going 36mph. As you rise in the air you decrease speed to maybe 34mph...where did the energy go?
Can kinetic energy change into potential energy? - Answers

I see no strawman....just your exact words