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pawelstep

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Hello,

could you please help me with this situation. I have an opportunity to buy a 2015 specialized stumpjumper comp carbon for a good price.
However it has some paint cracks/chipping around the place where the seattube comes in (see pictures).

Could you tell me your thoughts regarding if its just paint or also some cracking in the carbon underneath.
 

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Hello,

could you please help me with this situation. I have an opportunity to buy a 2015 specialized stumpjumper comp carbon for a good price.
However it has some paint cracks/chipping around the place where the seattube comes in (see pictures).

Could you tell me your thoughts regarding if its just paint or also some cracking in the carbon underneath.
It could be either. I don't know if the seller would let you do this, but carefully removing the chipping paint (like prying it up with a razor blade edge) would likely reveal whether the underlying frame has cracks or if this is just a poor paint job peeling off. It doesn't look great.
 
My mantra is, “people sell their problems”. Not always but quite frequently. Bang on the frame, if you have a favorite mechanic ask them, or take a knowledgeable friend with you to look before buying. I know bike demand is high and supply is low, caveat emptor.
 
Do not tap/bang on your frame. It's useless.

Bike frames are typically made from thin laminate with localised thicker areas at the higher stress joins. Bonded parts are limited in modern frames and typically no honeycomb core is used in the way some aircraft panels are constructed, with the exception of some disc wheels. On frames with bonded parts at the tube junctions such as imternal or external lugs, the compound curvature geometry and laminate thickness at the lug areas as well as the tube shapes contribute to getting unreliable information from a tap test. The damage also needs to be above a critical size dependant on the geometry of the inspected area, hence a 5mm defect in a seat stay that is only 10mm wide would probably not be found but will have a large effect on the structural integrity. Other factors such as internal joins, fillers and inserts will also affect the ability to get meaningful results.

So as you can see, the tap test method on its own is not able to reliably detect damage in these type of parts.


Simple answer. No! (not really)

Why? Coin testing on carbon fractures is still used on surfaces such as helicopter blades to pre test before detailed inspection. These surfaces are flattish and more uniform. It is easier to tell the difference. Still I would prefer a better inspection if I am honest!

Bike frames/ forks and wheels are complex shapes. These shapes change pitch in any given direction or thickness. For example if you tapped over a lugged area you would think the bike was about to fall apart…Even paint thickness’s change depending on where the concentration of paint is.
 
That's barely useful in general. And absolutely useless at a junction of multiple tubes with varying thicknesses and multi-direction carbon layers.
Many people will successfully bang the frame with a quarter to find cracks










Ultra sound doesn’t seem the best either
 
Carbon repair experts say it doesn't work. I really don't care what you think random interweb forum people say.

AGAIN....

You should read the experts I linked before you’re so sure of yourself.

“ 'Carbon usually has a very crisp sound to it [when tapped] and when it’s damaged the tone changes completely,' says John Hansell of Yorkshire-based Fibre-Lyte, which offers a full inspection and repair service for carbon frames.”
 
It's a Stumpy.. it has beefier carbon setup than road bikes. They can take a beating to some extent. As someone else noted, check the inside after removing the seatpost. I'm not going to comment on the other "experts" posting on the thread.. I don't want to join the pissing match.

CF can be repair if done properly, assuming it is just the outer layer which can get chipped up easily by regular riding, you should be fine. But even if it is cracked.. do the math... would a CF repair by a professional and the cost of the used bike still be worth it to you, and significantly cheaper than a new bike... If the answer is yes, then it is still a pretty good deal.
 
You should read the experts I linked before you’re so sure of yourself.

“ 'Carbon usually has a very crisp sound to it [when tapped] and when it’s damaged the tone changes completely,' says John Hansell of Yorkshire-based Fibre-Lyte, which offers a full inspection and repair service for carbon frames.”
Usually? lol Wow so reliable.

AGAIN....

On frames with bonded parts at the tube junctions such as imternal or external lugs, the compound curvature geometry and laminate thickness at the lug areas as well as the tube shapes contribute to getting unreliable information from a tap test. The damage also needs to be above a critical size dependant on the geometry of the inspected area, hence a 5mm defect in a seat stay that is only 10mm wide would probably not be found but will have a large effect on the structural integrity. Other factors such as internal joins, fillers and inserts will also affect the ability to get meaningful results.

So as you can see, the tap test method on its own is not able to reliably detect damage in these type of parts.


Bike frames/ forks and wheels are complex shapes. These shapes change pitch in any given direction or thickness. For example if you tapped over a lugged area you would think the bike was about to fall apart…Even paint thickness’s change depending on where the concentration of paint is.
 
You should read the experts I linked before you’re so sure of yourself.

“ 'Carbon usually has a very crisp sound to it [when tapped] and when it’s damaged the tone changes completely,' says John Hansell of Yorkshire-based Fibre-Lyte, which offers a full inspection and repair service for carbon frames.”
Oh look... you left out this part. lmao

'Carbon usually has a very crisp sound to it [when tapped] and when it’s damaged the tone changes completely,' says John Hansell of Yorkshire-based Fibre-Lyte, which offers a full inspection and repair service for carbon frames.

Others are less convinced by the tap and listen approach, however, suggesting that while this may work on very uniform tube shapes (such as boat masts) there are too many complexities within the lay-ups involved in bicycle frame design to get clear indications from sound.
 
That leaves Tig as one who is “less convinced” with the tap test. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t work as he is so intent on telling.


“ Hansell says, 'An experienced ear can tell you a lot more than just looking, although we do sometimes use an endoscope [internal camera] to see how a frame looks on the inside to back it up.'



Tig left out any possibility of it working, which is a mistake and many experts use the method and state it’s very useful with BIKES as I posted.
 
I’m not claiming to be an expert just posting what experts say in the interest of helping dude out.
Yea lets help the dude out by not telling him to try a technique that's not proven to work and even your 'expert' claims it takes an experienced ear.

“ Hansell says, 'An experienced ear can tell you a lot more than just looking,

I guess that leaves you as one who is “less convinced” with the tap test. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t work as you say.
I said it 'doesn't work' on a "junction of multiple tubes with varying thicknesses and multi-direction carbon layers."
Which the experts agree. Which your link does as well.


YOU left out any possibility of it working, which is a mistake and many experts use the method and state it’s very useful with BIKES
It 'can' work on a straight tube of consistent thickness. Which of course the OP's photos are not.
So for the OP... useless.
 
Others are less convinced by the tap and listen approach, however, suggesting that while this may work on very uniform tube shapes (such as boat masts) there are too many complexities within the lay-ups involved in bicycle frame design to get clear indications from sound.
YOU are one who is “less convinced”. You are “suggesting” the tube shape wil be too hard to work with. That’s ur uninformed opinion not the opinion of the writer and expert who I quoted. He is not saying it doesn’t work and he is here obviously just passing on the questioning of others.

I’m not saying it works flawlessly because experts don’t say it works flawlessly. It is a method that has shown successful many times though. Or you can jump up the big step to some more scientific method. This isn’t that. Saying as you have repeatedly Tig that it can’t work isn’t correct and many pros use the method as they say.
 
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