32h or 36h for the bigger rider? HED Belgiums Plus 32h vs Velocity Dyads 36h.

Migen21 · Feb 25, 2017

Lombard said:
Point well taken. $1,200?? The OP didn't quote a price on those wheels. IMHO, $1,200 is too much to pay for a set of wheels, period. But that's just me. I would be willing to spend $700 tops. I'm guessing the CK hubs are the most expensive part of those. A pair of Shimano Ultegra 6800 hubs are about one fourth the cost and just as strong and durable, if not more. The expense in the CK hubs is in the lightweight.

Chris King Wheels

$1200 is MSRP for the disc version of the Alloy Ride wheel in 28/28 - built. You can likely get them cheaper online or if your LBS offers you a frequent buyer discount (I got my rim brake set for ~$800 a few years ago).

$1200 is low compared to the price of the high end carbon wheelsets.

Worth noting that I've seen 'custom' builds featuring this hub/rim combo on Ebay for less money, but if you dig into the details, they are not using the same spokes, and are expensive to ship - the build quality is also unknown - which is a big deal for us non-wheelbuilder types.

This hasn't been discussed much in this thread, but I'm sure the wheel builders here will agree with this - probably more important than the number of spokes or the quality of the components is the quality of the build itself - and the willingness of the builder to stand behind their work. Especially as a clyde.

My next set of wheels, regardless of what it is, will come from a small local shop who employs a custom builder who is well regarded and stands behind his work. I like supporting folks like this.

Mike T. · Feb 25, 2017

Good observations & opinions as usual ND. I've had King hubs (still have 'em on my MTB) for about 20 years and it's never been about "extra longevity" above other hubs. It's always about 1) I want 'em, 2) I can afford 'em, 3) my Mrs is ok with the purchase. Nothing else. One thing about them that gets coffee-shop bragging points (or rolled eyes) is that King makes ball bearings in house. Who else does that eh?

I would never buy them again though as I know that less expensive hubs will do what I need from them - even BHS type hubs.

I'm not getting any deeper into the "wheelbuilding" aspects of this thread as the topics are non-arguable and at least you and Griz has it sorted.

But someone might enjoy this pic. It's an old early '90s Bontrager offset rear MTB rim of mine. The ferrule didn't stop this nipple hole from cracking. The radial crack (diagnosed by hacksaw) was along the base of a radial web that linked the two faces of the rim. The anecdote to go along with it is that it's the last rim of mine that ever suffered a cracked nipple hole. All my non-eyelet rims and eyeletted Open Pros have never cracked.

dirtiClydesdale · Feb 25, 2017

Lombard said:
Lots of replies here, some of it conflicting. Dirti C., the most helpful advice here is from the two known Clydes in this thread - DCGriz and Migen. So I'm sure both of them have first hand experience of the frustration of wheel failures. In fact, I was about to post and caution to you about the aluminum CK hub freebody until I saw Migen's post about his success with these. Somehow, common sense was telling me an aluminum freehub body and a 270lb. man were a bad combo. I was obviously wrong. After 15K miles, a wheel doesn't owe you anything

....

Bottom line is you probably won't go wrong with the HED Belgium Plus 32h with Chris King hubs. 3x lacing with double-butted spokes. I have yet to hear of a HED Belgium rim failing. I have heard of quite a few QC issues with Velocity rims. As Migen said, you might want to find out whether the nipples on those are brass or aluminum as that was his point of failure. You want brass as aluminum can corrode over time.

I appreciate your input with DCGriz and Migen. Overall, I honestly thought of Chris King RC45 hubs because I saw an article with them on. But, your point in regards to aluminum and big guys is very accurate. While Im sure each mfg hub can have its issues... I would prefer to make the wheelset as bombproof as possible. With that said... going with White Industries with the titanium freehub might alleviate the aluminum vs big dude weight factor.

I surely didnt pick CKs because of the expense but honestly... for myself, my health is worth whatever expense. TBH. Im just truly looking for the a set of wheels that can get me down 75+ lbs and then I can re-evaluate the situation. But even then... I kinda feel that I would like this to be my 5-year rims that last as long as the bike does.

From what Im grabbing from this post... Im thinking HED Belgium Plus rims with CK/White Industries Titanium freehub 32h on front/back with double butted spokes and brass nipples. I honestly have no clue what that will run me but I do intend to strike some sort of deal with the lbs I plan to purchase the bike from. Like asking for 10-15% off of parts and creation of the wheel instead of asking it off the bike? If anything, that will be my two most wanted items, the custom wheelset creation and the pro fit! (Im sure pro fit is not the appropriate term but the "advanced" fit.)

Migen21 · Feb 25, 2017

Making value judgments about how much something worth in terms of money on a message board is fraught with peril.

It's a very individual thing. One persons $1200 is another persons $12000 dollars and another persons $12.

I get a kick out of the 'is this used bike worth $500?" or 'is this upgrade worth it'? threads. The answer is always 'Maybe!'. It's your money - how much do you like having it vs that shiny new thing? I can't tell you how much your money means to you - but, if I have some experience to share, I can tell you about that and let you use that information to make a decision. What I can't do is say 'yes, that upgrade is easily 'worth it'.

Back on topic... any hub or rim that will get you down the road safely and reliably is 'good enough'. Everything else is just icing, right? How light is it? how much faster will it make you go up the hill (or down the hill), how long will it last? How difficult is it to service? How much curb appeal does it have? We all give all of these things weight when we buy things - some people drive Mercedes, when a 12 year old Kia works just as well for driving to work and to buy groceries.

I really appreciate Dave's take on the King hubs. His description of them is exactly what my impression is of them after 3 years of having them. and I LOVE them (I just wish they could be easily converted to different axle standards). Does anyone 'need' a Chris King hub? Is it going to make their bike faster, or stronger, or last longer than a hub half that price? Not in any measurable way.

I was new (again) to cycling in 2014 when I started riding again after about 25 years of being a fat guy sitting on the couch watching TV. When I bought my 'nice' bike (BMC GF-01), it was explained to me that the supplied wheels were more of a lightweight racing wheel. I dont recall specifically, but it was something made by DT Swiss with 20/24 spoke, and probably not suitable for my application int he long term - and suggested I get something a little more robust. The gave me some store credit for them which I applied to something 'better'. Most of the wheels they had hanging on the wall were carbon Enve's and Reynolds, and most of the Dura Ace line of wheels, which were also not really applicable. I had never heard of Chris King or HED and didn't know anything about them (or any other wheel/hub sets for that matter), but the shop manager described the wheel to me, explained why the HED Belgium Plus on CK hubs was a good match, and said they had several customers riding them who were very happy. I took them at their word and had them order them.

Did they oversell me? Absolutely - they could have sold me a much less expensive 36 hole double-walled touring/rando rim on a decent hub with heavy gauge spokes and I would have probably been fine, and maybe even had a similar experience with them. And if that were the case I'd probably be here in this thread telling everyone about how great they are.

You guys are all experienced riders, and some of you are experienced wheel builders - you've had your own experiences to reference, and all kinds of customer stories to share. I don't have that - I just have me - As I said, I may be a statistical outlier. All I can do is share my own experience and let the folks reading make their own decisions about how to spend their money.

dcgriz · Feb 25, 2017

dirtiClydesdale said:
I appreciate your input with DCGriz and Migen. Overall, I honestly thought of Chris King RC45 hubs because I saw an article with them on. But, your point in regards to aluminum and big guys is very accurate. While Im sure each mfg hub can have its issues... I would prefer to make the wheelset as bombproof as possible. With that said... going with White Industries with the titanium freehub might alleviate the aluminum vs big dude weight factor.

I surely didnt pick CKs because of the expense but honestly... for myself, my health is worth whatever expense. TBH. Im just truly looking for the a set of wheels that can get me down 75+ lbs and then I can re-evaluate the situation. But even then... I kinda feel that I would like this to be my 5-year rims that last as long as the bike does.

From what Im grabbing from this post... Im thinking HED Belgium Plus rims with CK/White Industries Titanium freehub 32h on front/back with double butted spokes and brass nipples. I honestly have no clue what that will run me but I do intend to strike some sort of deal with the lbs I plan to purchase the bike from. Like asking for 10-15% off of parts and creation of the wheel instead of asking it off the bike? If anything, that will be my two most wanted items, the custom wheelset creation and the pro fit! (Im sure pro fit is not the appropriate term but the "advanced" fit.)

I bolded and underlined a segment of your post because I'll attempt to make this the focus of my post.

I have several CK R45 hubs and I do really like them for what they are. Every time I take them apart to oil them I remind myself how Impressed I am of how they are put together. If there is one thing I dont like about them is the constant attention their preset needs and at this note I would offer my opinion that the CK R45 (or the T11 for that matter) is not the right hub for what you are starting out to do.

The hub I would use if I was at your position (and I have been close to it, BTW) is the Ultegra 6800. Its a very durable, set-and-forget. Maybe you grease it once a year if you get caught riding in the rain. It's not very popular because of its availability only in 32 or 36h and its weight but rest assured the extra 80 or so grams will not affect you one bit.

Later on its quite possible your focus will be on other cycling related aspects and that time may be more appropriate for more "racy" oriented stuff like the CK Racing45.

Just my $0.02 having been there...

Migen21 · Feb 25, 2017

Are Ultegra 6800 Hubs available in Disc now?

dcgriz · Feb 25, 2017

Migen21 said:
Are Ultegra 6800 Hubs available in Disc now?

Shoot! I forgot he has discs. No, they are not and I doubt they will ever be.

The OP mentioned R45 not R45D which is the centerlock or ring drive version of the R45. Anyway, my bad......the equivalent in the Shimano line would be the XT centerlock; only in 32h though.

Migen21 · Feb 25, 2017

Ok, mea culpa - I just looked at November Wheels custom disc clinchers - 28/28 HED Belgium Plus clincher with bladed spokes, brass nipples on White T11's and custom built by November Dave himself for just a tad over $900 (Dave am I seeing this right)?

OP, go buy those wheels.

dirtiClydesdale · Feb 25, 2017

dcgriz said:
I bolded and underlined a segment of your post because I'll attempt to make this the focus of my post.

I have several CK R45 hubs and I do really like them for what they are. Every time I take them apart to oil them I remind myself how Impressed I am of how they are put together. If there is one thing I dont like about them is the constant attention their preset needs and at this note I would offer my opinion that the CK R45 (or the T11 for that matter) is not the right hub for what you are starting out to do.

The hub I would use if I was at your position (and I have been close to it, BTW) is the Ultegra 6800. Its a very durable, set-and-forget. Maybe you grease it once a year if you get caught riding in the rain. It's not very popular because of its availability only in 32 or 36h and its weight but rest assured the extra 80 or so grams will not affect you one bit.

Later on its quite possible your focus will be on other cycling related aspects and that time may be more appropriate for more "racy" oriented stuff like the CK Racing45.

Just my $0.02 having been there...

dcgriz... yes my fault. I just shortened the CK R45 on my own ignorance because I had no clue on the difference in nomenclature.

My future plans, if this information helps, will never to race but to only include centuries for causes. I liked to do the Amtrak (SoCal) century from Irvine to San Diego and they also had a wounded warrior project century but it was never as large as the amtrak one. Now, that I moved to North Dallas... the only one Im aware of is the hotter than hell but this heat is something I have never dealt with so I need to learn where I stand after I get some semblance of getting back to 100 miles. Im 46 years old and the most I hope to obtain is maybe a gravel ride someday other than the centuries.

Of course, I would like to research options, in regards to hubs or even possibly a replacement rim for the velocity? HED Belgiums were what I had on my Cervelo R3 and that lasted me 5 years so thats pretty much the main reason why Im following it up with another HED rim. The Chris King R45D hubs come in orange, (I know... kinda stupid reason, but I thought why not match the hub to the bike for some aesthetic niceties?) but the option is going with the White Industries only for the stronger freehub. If titanium is actually stronger than a CK alu hub?

edit: I forgot to mention that the shop stated that they would give me credit for the existing wheelset on either the BMC RM 01 or the Trek Domane that I plan to purchase. Also, they were willing to give me 10% off the price as long as I order the wheels the same day as the bike. So, that should cut some expense on the wheels somewhat. The shop said that they have a "master wheelbuilder" but I have no clue what the "master" portion means other than typical sales lingo. So, overall, I think the price of the new wheelset will not totally kill the budget since I will have the percentage plus credit from the stock wheelset. /crossing-fingers

Migen21 · Feb 25, 2017

As I understand it, the benefit of a Titanium freehub body is that it's less susceptible to being 'notched' by the cassette rings, which can be problem for big powerful riders. Aluminum is more susceptible.

Here is a picture of a severely notched freehub body I found randomly on the Internet.

When they get notched like this, the cassette cog rings can rotate and cause issues, and not to mention it can make getting the cassette off pretty challenging.

That said, I don't think aluminum freehub bodies are a deal breaker (I guess that is obvious for me). Quite a few manufacturers use freehub bodies made from aluminum. If you aren't andre griepel and keep your cassette torqued down tight, I don't think you are going to have too much trouble.

Also, this is a replaceable part.

The one in my 15k mile wheelset have some signs of notching, but nothing severe enough to warrant replacing it. I'm definitely not making Andre Griepel power, and my knees don't love climbing, so I mostly stick to flats and rollers unless I'm on a charity ride or something.

Enoch562 · Feb 25, 2017

Put some spokes in your wheel. At 270 you really need all you can get. THe gains may be little, but they are still gains. We always had a saying when building motors, You can't argue with Cubic inches.

I would never recommend 28 tiny bladed spokes to someone of your size.

Migen21 · Feb 25, 2017

Enoch562 said:
Put some spokes in your wheel. At 270 you really need all you can get. THe gains may be little, but they are still gains. We always had a saying when building motors, You can't argue with Cubic inches.

I would never recommend 28 tiny bladed spokes to someone of your size.

Did you read November Dave's post (Post #4 in this thread), or any of my personal experiences with 28/28's at 270lbs?

36h and even 32h spokes are really overkill for most general purpose road cycling applications (again, see Daves comments about diminishing returns).

Maybe if you are out riding in the wilderness and your life depends on your ability to ride home, it might be worth doing, but for daily rides out of your garage, on your local roads, it's really not necessary to go that high in most cases.

November Dave · Feb 25, 2017

Sounds about right. But... Normally this isn't the kind of thing I'd ever do on a forum but this also isn't the kind of thing that happens normally. Anyhow, a guy bought a set of HED Belgium+ Disc with red WI CLD hubs in November (great month) then promptly blew his back out and probably will never be able to use them. He's in SD area. We'd agreed to list them as this week's featured build on our site, but this is literally a perfect fit here - right wheels, seems like a local-ish situation...

He will sell them for roughly 20% off his original cost. The wheels have never even had tires installed.

PM me for details if you'd like, OP

Enoch562 · Feb 25, 2017

Migen21 said:
Did you read November Dave's post (Post #4 in this thread), or any of my personal experiences with 28/28's at 270lbs?

36h and even 32h spokes are really overkill for most general purpose road cycling applications (again, see Daves comments about diminishing returns).

Maybe if you are out riding in the wilderness and your life depends on your ability to ride home, it might be worth doing, but for daily rides out of your garage, on your local roads, it's really not necessary to go that high in most cases.

What Dave would do and I would do are 2 different things. He doesn't build my wheels.

Fredrico · Feb 25, 2017

Mike T. said:
Good observations & opinions as usual ND. I've had King hubs (still have 'em on my MTB) for about 20 years and it's never been about "extra longevity" above other hubs. It's always about 1) I want 'em, 2) I can afford 'em, 3) my Mrs is ok with the purchase. Nothing else. One thing about them that gets coffee-shop bragging points (or rolled eyes) is that King makes ball bearings in house. Who else does that eh?

I would never buy them again though as I know that less expensive hubs will do what I need from them - even BHS type hubs.

I'm not getting any deeper into the "wheelbuilding" aspects of this thread as the topics are non-arguable and at least you and Griz has it sorted.

But someone might enjoy this pic. It's an old early '90s Bontrager offset rear MTB rim of mine. The ferrule didn't stop this nipple hole from cracking. The radial crack (diagnosed by hacksaw) was along the base of a radial web that linked the two faces of the rim. The anecdote to go along with it is that it's the last rim of mine that ever suffered a cracked nipple hole. All my non-eyelet rims and eyeletted Open Pros have never cracked.

Wait a minute!

Easy to see the original crack was along the rim to the side of the spoke hole, then as the rim weakened, the spoke pulled the rim and eyelet up and caused the radial crack. This is obvious from the length of the parallel crack, which is much further along than the radial crack off the hole.

So in this pix the eyelet didn't make a difference. The rim alloy was so weak, it didn't separate at the hole, but alongside. The rim couldn't hold its shape against the tug of the spoke.

Agree, eyelets are probably used to strengthen the spoke holes on cheap alloy rims, but in 35 years, 8 of them meching in shops, I only ran into rims splitting radially beneath the eyelets a few times. I encountered cracked rims around non-eyeleted spoke holes much more frequently. As I never knew how strong the alloys used in a given replacement rim would be, and also treated rims as replaceable as hubs always outlast rims, I've always taken the eyelet route.

I'm also quite skeptical that enlarging the holes to accommodate eyelets provides a LESS durable wheel. The strength is determined by how snug the nipple seats on the spoke hole/eyelet, not necessarily the diameter of the hole. Spokes in eyeleted rims are quite strong, as the nipple is wider than the spoke and has more area to seat on, making it as strong as the alloy, brass, and stainless steel materials provide.

Properly tensioned, the eyeleted rims I've encountered have always held up longer than non-eyeleted ones. If we're talking about loads of 270#, this is a good reason to go with eyelets. Add a few more spokes, like go to 36, the problem of rim deformation goes down even more.

The spokes hold the wheel true, not the rims. The fewer the spokes, the more the rim has to take up the stress. The weaker the link created by the spokes becomes, and if one breaks, forget truing with a spoke wrench and pedaling home. You're done. Call home.

Bontragers were crap, witness this one breaking outside the spoke hole first. So this is a bad example if one is trying to prove a point.

November Dave · Feb 25, 2017

Enoch562 said:
What Dave would do and I would do are 2 different things. He doesn't build my wheels.

To clarify, I wouldn't recommend 28/28 for the Op or someone his size. Chances are it would be fine so long as they're very well built. There is a point of diminishing returns in lateral stiffness at 28, but there are still other things that happen that 32 would help with.

I checked the set I mentioned and they're 28/28, I'd thought they were28/32.

Largely because a good built on a Belgium+ rim (and to further clarify, a Belgium+ is a better rim than a regular Belgium - the tooling for the B+ must just be about perfect) allows for something approaching perfectly even spoke tension, all the spokes are hard at work all the time. I believe that that difference to a Velocity rim, which in my experience can't be built to as uniform a spoke tension, makes the B+ 32 a straight up better wheel than a 36h Dyad.

We also spec heavier gauge spokes on the loaded side of wheels. The benefit to stiffness is debatable but the benefit to stability of the build seems to have proven itself beyond doubt in our experience.

A couple of people sent PMs about theeheels, I'll be able to return them Monday. Unplugging now and racing tomorrow. Because when it's 55* in February why not have a race?

Oh - R45 is so named because it has a 45 point ratchet mechanism. Not because it's a racing hub.

dcgriz · Feb 25, 2017

November Dave said:
.........snipped

Oh - R45 is so named because it has a 45 point ratchet mechanism. Not because it's a racing hub.

I tried to illustrate the point that the OP does not need a hub designed for racing applications.

If you dont believe me that the R45 is such hub, then you may believe the manufacturer; from the CK website:

PRODUCT DETAILS
When we set out to design our R45 hub we had over 30 years of bearing experience and 20 years of building hubs under our belts. The R45 is the culmination of that experience; we focused on creating a lightweight road racing hub that utilized hallmarks of Chris King components: precision, performance, and quality. Our R45 rear hub combines a redesigned RingDrive™ system with 45 teeth for lower drag and near instant engagement with a lightweight hub body and our legendary made-in-house bearings.

The R45 release followed the now called Classic for the purpose of addressing what was stated above.

Fredrico · Feb 26, 2017

beanpole said:
No, it won't.
The "stress relieve" will happen during the ride, the spoke snaps back and you end up with a wheel that is out of true.

Thanks for the correction. Yes, the preferable way is to overturn the spoke more than needed and turn back to take out the twist, rather than holding it with a metal tool. Don't crimp that sucker.

Also didn't mention the obvious: after stress relieving the spokes by pressing the rim sideways all around, you have to true it again, this time not a lot, so its easier to get it right turning the wrench and backing off with each adjustment. I always found this easy on straight gauge spokes, more difficult on butted spokes. They twist in the middle 1.5 section more than at the ends.

So yeah, the wheels should be stress relived before riding on them, that's for sure. Twisted spokes straightening under rider loads may not break initially, but they'll get scored at the bends and break down miles later on the road. I also go around the rim and squeeze the spokes with the hands, then check the true, before considering the wheel ready for mounting on the bike.

dirtiClydesdale · Feb 26, 2017

November Dave said:
To clarify, I wouldn't recommend 28/28 for the Op or someone his size. Chances are it would be fine so long as they're very well built. There is a point of diminishing returns in lateral stiffness at 28, but there are still other things that happen that 32 would help with.

November Dave... FYI, I plan on keeping a 32h front/rear. Migen was only using his personal example of using a 28h.

November Dave said:
Largely because a good built on a Belgium+ rim (and to further clarify, a Belgium+ is a better rim than a regular Belgium - the tooling for the B+ must just be about perfect) allows for something approaching perfectly even spoke tension, all the spokes are hard at work all the time. I believe that that difference to a Velocity rim, which in my experience can't be built to as uniform a spoke tension, makes the B+ 32 a straight up better wheel than a 36h Dyad.

I also appreciate this info and makes me feel alot comfortable in going with the HED B+ 32h rim.

In regards to the hub... racing or not, I just liked the hub for its color possibilities to match the bike. I really dont care for a "super light" hub but again Im just looking for more durable and bombproof hubs. In this thread, I think the CKs have been proven to have great durability as long a Im not treating them hard! My rides will primarily be on the road losing weight... not jumping off curbs or tree stumps! =)

Lombard · Feb 26, 2017

Fredrico said:
The fewer the spokes, the more the rim has to take up the stress. The weaker the link created by the spokes becomes, and if one breaks, forget truing with a spoke wrench and pedaling home. You're done. Call home.

Bontragers were crap, witness this one breaking outside the spoke hole first. So this is a bad example if one is trying to prove a point.

I broke a spoke on one of the infamous Bontrager paired spoke wheels mid-ride. It was a 24 spoke rear. To be fair, I was able to true the wheel well enough to ride 30 more miles without any brake or stay rub. Took the bike to my shop that evening and he found the spoke hole cracks. Junk at only 4K miles and I'm only 170lbs!

32h or 36h for the bigger rider? HED Belgiums Plus 32h vs Velocity Dyads 36h.

Migen21

Mike T.

dirtiClydesdale

Migen21

dcgriz

Migen21

dcgriz

Migen21

dirtiClydesdale

Migen21

Enoch562

Migen21

November Dave

Enoch562

Fredrico

November Dave

dcgriz

Fredrico

dirtiClydesdale

Lombard

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