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32h or 36h for the bigger rider? HED Belgiums Plus 32h vs Velocity Dyads 36h.

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#41 ·
dirtiClydesdale said:
In this thread, I think the CKs have been proven to have great durability as long a Im not treating them hard! My rides will primarily be on the road losing weight... not jumping off curbs or tree stumps! =)
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They are durable. But so are pretty much all decent hubs so durability isn't a reason to pay the premium for CK over, say, White Industries.
 
#42 ·
Fredrico said:
Thanks for the correction. Yes, the preferable way is to overturn the spoke more than needed and turn back to take out the twist, rather than holding it with a metal tool. Don't crimp that sucker.

Also didn't mention the obvious: after stress relieving the spokes by pressing the rim sideways all around, you have to true it again, this time not a lot, so its easier to get it right turning the wrench and backing off with each adjustment. I always found this easy on straight gauge spokes, more difficult on butted spokes. They twist in the middle 1.5 section more than at the ends.

So yeah, the wheels should be stress relived before riding on them, that's for sure. Twisted spokes straightening under rider loads may not break initially, but they'll get scored at the bends and break down miles later on the road. I also go around the rim and squeeze the spokes with the hands, then check the true, before considering the wheel ready for mounting on the bike.
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I have never had to do a "follow up" truing after the first ride. Anybody who says you have to do this is not stress relieving their wheels properly.

Granted I have never built wheels with 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes. The builds I have done are with DT Competitions (2.0/1.8/2.0) and DT Aero Comps (2.0/2.3-1.2/2.0). Aero Comps are a bit more expensive, but a breeze to build with compared to round spokes as you can instantly see the spoke wind.

I follow Mike T.'s stress relieving bible here:

Optimizing your spokes -

Method 1. Perform this once only, just after you have got a fair amount of tension in the wheels. Where the "heads in" spokes exit the hubs – take the plastic tipped hammer and tap the spoke bend a little flatter. This does not take much effort. You can also use your thumb to flatten this curve when lacing these "heads in" spokes. They will reach the rim easier and better. You're actually bending the spoke where it exits the hub. You need to do this so that the spoke contains no residual tension due to this curve. Verrrry important!

Method 2. Perform this after every "round" of truing or tensioning. Grasp parallel pairs of spokes on each side – one pair in each hand - while wearing leather gloves and squeeze them in the hands as hard as you can. Go all around the wheel once.

Method 3. Perform once. Take the screwdriver handle and slightly twist the final spoke crosses around each other. Be gentle here. Place the screwdriver handle in the final cross and above it, press down slightly and twist the two spokes around each other. This is not really a "twist" but just a slight, very slight bending. The spokes will do this themselves if you don't do it but then they might lose a minute bit of tension too.

Method 4. Do this after each "round" of added tension - press downinto the final spokecrossing, from the rim side of the cross, towards the hub. I use an old screwdriver handle for this (it's my nipple driver above).Use a screwdriver handle, an old LH crank or a wooden dowel (like a 6" piece of old broom handle).

Method 5. Do this once after you have a fair amount of tension on the spokes. Take a thin punch and a hammer. Tap the head of each spoke to seat the head squarely in the hub flange. I said "tap"................not "pound the **** out of". We're just seating the head in the flange and aligning the head.

Method 6. Place wheel flat on floor with the rim part nearest to you touching the floor. A piece of cardboard or carpet will prevent the QR from scratches. With hands at 9 & 3 o'clock, press down gently but firmly and quickly. Rotate wheel 1/8th turn & repeat for one full turn of the wheel. Turn wheel over and repeat. The pings you hear are spokes unwinding. But if you have identified and removed all twist, as outlined above in the section "Spoke Twist......" there shouldn't be any left. Check for true afterwards. Repeat this after each stage or "round". You can't repeat this one too often.
 
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#43 ·
Migen21 said:
As I understand it, the benefit of a Titanium freehub body is that it's less susceptible to being 'notched' by the cassette rings, which can be problem for big powerful riders. Aluminum is more susceptible.

Here is a picture of a severely notched freehub body I found randomly on the Internet.

Image


When they get notched like this, the cassette cog rings can rotate and cause issues, and not to mention it can make getting the cassette off pretty challenging.

That said, I don't think aluminum freehub bodies are a deal breaker (I guess that is obvious for me). Quite a few manufacturers use freehub bodies made from aluminum. If you aren't andre griepel and keep your cassette torqued down tight, I don't think you are going to have too much trouble.

Also, this is a replaceable part.

The one in my 15k mile wheelset have some signs of notching, but nothing severe enough to warrant replacing it. I'm definitely not making Andre Griepel power, and my knees don't love climbing, so I mostly stick to flats and rollers unless I'm on a charity ride or something.
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Some people have problems with aluminum freehub gouging, others don't. My only guess other than rider weight and riding style is probably the fact that there are different alloys of aluminum - some softer, some harder. Just my guess.
 
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#46 ·
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#47 ·
Lombard said:
Really?? And what is your basis for this wisdom? What could I hope to achieve besides saving a few grams of weight? Inquiring minds want to know. :rolleyes:
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First, do you get any kind of tension on the rear left side spokes when you have thick spokes on both sides? Thinner spokes on the left side helps you to get a tension there that is not close to zero.
Second, due to being more elastic in the middle part thinner spokes are less prone to breaking at the elbows.

Ever heard of "The bicycle wheel" by Jobst Brandt? Good reading for the inquiring mind...
 
#48 ·
beanpole said:
First, do you get any kind of tension on the rear left side spokes when you have thick spokes on both sides? Thinner spokes on the left side helps you to get a tension there that is not close to zero.
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With my DS tensions at around 130kgF, I get around 55kgF NDS tensions which is sufficient tension. I doubt that any experienced wheel builder would consider this a serious problem.

beanpole said:
Second, due to being more elastic in the middle part thinner spokes are less prone to breaking at the elbows.
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2.0/1.8/2.0 or the bladed spokes I mentioned have enough butting so they flex in the middle, not at the more vulnerable j-bend or nipple. If a little is good, more isn't necessarily better. Have you ever heard of the law of diminishing returns?

beanpole said:
Ever heard of "The bicycle wheel" by Jobst Brandt? Good reading for the inquiring mind...
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I own it and I'm quite familiar with it. Another excellent book for wheel builders is Roger Musson's "Professional Guide to Wheelbuilding". It is $12 and includes lifetime free revisions:

Wheelbuilding book for cycle wheels

It is an excellent read.
 
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#50 ·
OP, a couple of posts ago you mentioned that you just liked the CK R45D hub because of its color possibilities and in particular orange. This is a very true statement and often enough the main reason of choice for a lot of people when faced with the dilemma which hub to use. This and the preconceived notion that "most expensive" equates to an indiscriminate "best" for all and everything.

At this point you have been exposed to a considerable discussion about the subject and hopefully with enough information to start formulating your own assessment or at least questions. IMO, one of the best sources available to you is the manufacturer of the hubs you are considering. The Chris King bunch is good group of people and IMO will guide you right. They also have a wide array of offerings so they may suggest a more robust hub for you than the R45D. At the end of the day, these are the people who will warranty your hub so their suggestion should count more. Same holds true with the White Industries folks (no orange hub there though).
 
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Discussion starter · #51 ·
dcgriz said:
OP, a couple of posts ago you mentioned that you just liked the CK R45D hub because of its color possibilities and in particular orange. This is a very true statement and often enough the main reason of choice for a lot of people when faced with the dilemma which hub to use. This and the preconceived notion that "most expensive" equates to an indiscriminate "best" for all and everything.

At this point you have been exposed to a considerable discussion about the subject and hopefully with enough information to start formulating your own assessment or at least questions. IMO, one of the best sources available to you is the manufacturer of the hubs you are considering. The Chris King bunch is good group of people and IMO will guide you right. They also have a wide array of offerings so they may suggest a more robust hub for you than the R45D. At the end of the day, these are the people who will warranty your hub so their suggestion should count more. Same holds true with the White Industries folks (no orange hub there though).
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dcgriz... I whole heartedly agree with you. I have sent inquiry emails to both vendors a few days ago and Im hoping to hear anything back. I do acknowledge that the "contact" emails may or may not be replied to but my hope is for some detailed guidance between the differences of the two.
 
#52 ·
Jay Strongbow said:
They are durable. But so are pretty much all decent hubs so durability isn't a reason to pay the premium for CK over, say, White Industries.
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dirtiClydesdale said:
Thats a great point and an easy substitute to save money overall! Especially if they are both durable! I really appreciate the clarification!
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I have disassembled or rebuilt several brands of hubs, and I believe Novatec and Bitex are made just as well as any of the brands that cost 3-4 times as much. Though they do have a more plain vanilla appearance.

The Novatec freehub has a steel insert called the Anti Bite Guard which prevents the notching that many aluminum freehubs have trouble with.

I built these 32h HED wheels with centerlock disc hubs just last week.



 
#53 ·
dirtiClydesdale said:
dcgriz... I whole heartedly agree with you. I have sent inquiry emails to both vendors a few days ago and Im hoping to hear anything back. I do acknowledge that the "contact" emails may or may not be replied to but my hope is for some detailed guidance between the differences of the two.
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Forget the emails and get on the phone. You will get results.

Edit to add: Dont ask about the differences with another hub. Tell them what your intended purpose is, your weight, your pedaling style, your desires on performance, etc. and ask them to recommend the most suitable hub from their line-up for you.
 
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#54 ·
Lombard said:
With my DS tensions at around 130kgF, I get around 55kgF NDS tensions which is sufficient tension. I doubt that any experienced wheel builder would consider this a serious problem.
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That is not even half, more close to a third! How can one be satisfied with that?
I like the spokes on both sides to go zing when plucked and not zing on the right and clonk on the left side, maybe I'm strange that way.

Lombard said:
Have you ever heard of the law of diminishing returns?
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No, but after I looked it up, I don't see why it applies here, because working with thinner spokes is hardly more difficult than working with thicker spokes.
 
#55 ·
beanpole said:
That is not even half, more close to a third! How can one be satisfied with that?
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There are at least a few experienced wheelbuilders in this thread, a couple who weigh at least 50lbs more than I do who build perfectly reliable wheels this way. To my knowledge, none of them have had wheels fail due to insufficient NDS spoke tensions.

beanpole said:
I like the spokes on both sides to go zing when plucked and not zing on the right and clonk on the left side, maybe I'm strange that way.
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Strange? We all have our quirks. :D
 
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#56 ·
Lombard said:
There are at least a few experienced wheelbuilders in this thread, a couple who weigh at least 50lbs more than I do who build perfectly reliable wheels this way. To my knowledge, none of them have had wheels fail due to insufficient NDS spoke tensions.
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I don't doubt that, but I can't bear these imbalances.
My rear wheels have Shimano 7speed hubs spacered up to 130mm or former 9/10 speed hubs with 7speed freehub bodies on them.
With today's hubs it would be 2:1 or nothing for me.
 
#57 ·
beanpole said:
I don't doubt that, but I can't bear these imbalances.
My rear wheels have Shimano 7speed hubs spacered up to 130mm or former 9/10 speed hubs with 7speed freehub bodies on them.
With today's hubs it would be 2:1 or nothing for me.
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The 130/55 tensions I mentioned are with an 11-speed freehub. With a 7-speed or an 8-9-10 speed freehub, it's not even worth a thought.
 
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#58 ·
Lombard said:
There are at least a few experienced wheelbuilders in this thread, a couple who weigh at least 50lbs more than I do who build perfectly reliable wheels this way. To my knowledge, none of them have had wheels fail due to insufficient NDS spoke tensions.
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:D I waited to see how you would reply to beanpole's comment on:

beanpole said:
That is not even half, more close to a third! How can one be satisfied with that?
I like the spokes on both sides to go zing when plucked and not zing on the right and clonk on the left side, maybe I'm strange that way.
.
Click to expand...
A couple of thoughts to add to your statement :
Regardless of what we would have desired to have on NDS tension we are severely limited by four things. DS tension, hub flange offset, hub flange diameter and symmetric or asymmetric shape of rim. The resulting DS/NDS tension ratio dictates what the NDS tension would be, given the DS tension. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why the DS tension has been creeping up since the 11s cassettes came out to fix the problems we did not have.

The 11s hubs of today have made the bracing angles to be steeper and thus reducing the tension ratio of the past eras. What this means is that where NDS of 65 kgf for a 7s hub was acceptable before, now a NDS of 55 kgf is, because there arent any other choices left other than maybe asymmetric rims and fancy lacing patterns which come with their own sets of problems. Nevetheless, 55kgf at the NDS is a good tension to have with a symmetric rim and usually you pay top dollar for the hub that will allow you to have it. The real problem is if you cant develop anything over 47 or 48kgf and there would be the case for the more exotic lacing patterns to be possibly considered rather than picking another hub which is what I would do.

So basically, a rear symmetric wheel will go zing on the DS and 45%zing on the NDS. I dont know if 45%Zing=Clonk but I do know that as long as the DS Zing is uniform across the DS and the NDS 45%Zing is uniform across the NDS, the wheel is good to go.

Interestingly enough and to demonstrate how the 11s has changed our thoughts on what hub geometry is acceptable, the 11s DT 240S has developed to be a top performance hub when referring to its tension ratio compared to its peers while a 10s DT 240 was really at the bottom of the list before. Same exact hub.
 
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#60 ·
dcgriz said:
:D I waited to see how you would reply to beanpole's comment on:

A couple of thoughts to add to your statement :
Regardless of what we would have desired to have on NDS tension we are severely limited by four things. DS tension, hub flange offset, hub flange diameter and symmetric or asymmetric shape of rim. The resulting DS/NDS tension ratio dictates what the NDS tension would be, given the DS tension. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why the DS tension has been creeping up since the 11s cassettes came out to fix the problems we did not have.

The 11s hubs of today have made the bracing angles to be steeper and thus reducing the tension ratio of the past eras. What this means is that where NDS of 65 kgf for a 7s hub was acceptable before, now a NDS of 55 kgf is, because there arent any other choices left other than maybe asymmetric rims and fancy lacing patterns which come with their own sets of problems. Nevetheless, 55kgf at the NDS is a good tension to have with a symmetric rim and usually you pay top dollar for the hub that will allow you to have it. The real problem is if you cant develop anything over 47 or 48kgf and there would be the case for the more exotic lacing patterns to be possibly considered rather than picking another hub which is what I would do.

So basically, a rear symmetric wheel will go zing on the DS and 45%zing on the NDS. I dont know if 45%Zing=Clonk but I do know that as long as the DS Zing is uniform across the DS and the NDS 45%Zing is uniform across the NDS, the wheel is good to go.

Interestingly enough and to demonstrate how the 11s has changed our thoughts on what hub geometry is acceptable, the 11s DT 240S has developed to be a top performance hub when referring to its tension ratio compared to its peers while a 10s DT 240 was really at the bottom of the list before. Same exact hub.
Click to expand...

Excellent detailed explanation, DC.

I think what Beanpole was insinuating is that he uses thinner spokes on the NDS in order to get more equal spoke tensions. Is this really a good practice?
 
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