[Touch0Gray]

Didn't they use Boron in steel bikes in the 80's as well?

When do we get to see Beryllium bikes? Or other slightly radioactive light metals? Something that will get you tracked by a NEST helicopter.

YEAH.........i want a bike you can see with your eyes shut...!!!!!!!

 

[bwana]

YEAH.........i want a bike you can see with your eyes shut...!!!!!!!

Not beryllium then, not radioactive at all.

 

[Touch0Gray]

shoot.....any idea's then?....save a lot of energy on batteries for lights...LOL

I'm thinking though.....a heavy metal bike might not be for weight weenies....

 

[Rubber Lizard]

Boron is an element and is widely used in metallurgy. Boron is added to steel to change the property of the steel.
Boron fibers are incredibly strong under compressive loads, the exact opposite of carbons fiber, which is strong under tensile loads. Boron fiber has been used for a very long time in carbon fiber construction. The price of Boron fiber has finally allowed it to start to appear in bicycle construction. Boron is neither new or exotic.
There is no bicycle made exclusively of Boron. The amount of boron in that frame is probably less than 50 grams.
I'm going to start calling my steel frame a carbon frame just because steel is iron with a high carbon content.
Marketing, all marketing.

 

[Touch0Gray]

The price of Boron fiber has finally allowed it to start to appear in bicycle construction.

Wondering, is it the price of Boron, or the fact that there are people willing to pay 6000 or more for a raw frame?......almost like price isn't an issue if, like you say, there is a good marketing hook...

 

[wim]

Selling stuff.

Marketing, all marketing.

I think the food industry started it: 1% orange juice + 99% water = orange juice.

Then we got 2% scandium in an aluminum alloy = scandium frame.

So now we have 50 g of boron fibers in 1,000 g of carbon-fiber reinforced plastic = boron frame.

 

[bbgobie]

Cool
Boron frame from concentrate.

 

[uzziefly]

It's nothing new like said.

The Madone SSLX last year had Boron in it too in some areas. But that plan was scrapped not long as it's not used anymore for Trek. Must be a reason.

 

[terzo rene]

Bontrager Race XXX lite VR bars have boron too.

 

[master2129]

Just in case you didn't get the memo, it's all about design, not materials. With a long wheelbase, thin tube walls, small tube diameter, slack seat tube angles, etc. you can build a very comfortable frame out of any common bike material. With a short wheelbase, thick tube walls, large tube diameters, steep seat tube angles, etc. you can build a very stiff/uncormfortable frame out of any common bike material. Print this out and tape it to your mirror

Kerry your comment is pretty short sighted. It's even bordering on the side of ignorant. Of course materials have a lot to do with the way a frame will feel and perform. Design plays into this for sure, but I think many in this thread would agree that tubing material is the beginning of what one can expect for presumed comfort level for a particular frame design. My point is that there is NO "memo" that one can tape to their mirror that can discount the role that tubing material plays when achieving long term comfort. If that were the case then every manufacturer in the world would build with the same exact material and rely on "design" to create their degree of separation. See how flawed your logic is? For this reason I asked for actual rider input on the subject matter. :thumbsup:

 

[Forrest Root]

Kerry your comment is pretty short sighted. It's even bordering on the side of ignorant. Of course materials have a lot to do with the way a frame will feel and perform. Design plays into this for sure, but I think many in this thread would agree that tubing material is the beginning of what one can expect for presumed comfort level for a particular frame design. My point is that there is NO "memo" that one can tape to their mirror that can discount the role that tubing material plays when achieving long term comfort. If that were the case them every manufacturer in the world would build with the same exact material and rely on "design" to create their degree of separation. See how flawed your logic is? For this reason I asked for actual rider input on the subject matter. :thumbsup:

Kerry has it right. Your logic is flawed, especially when it comes to degrees of separation. Manufacturers decidedly market material as a defining degree of separation. The truth, however, is that in terms of performance, material is not that defining degree. It's what is done with the material in the design. The competent engineer or designer knows that by varying material dimensions, constitution, and form, they can achieve the desired response.

 

[master2129]

Kerry has it right. Your logic is flawed, especially when it comes to degrees of separation. Manufacturers decidedly market material as a defining degree of separation. The truth, however, is that in terms of performance, material is not that defining degree. It's what is done with the material in the design. The competent engineer or designer knows that by varying material dimensions, constitution, and form, they can achieve the desired response.

Design is relegated to material composition. If the material is inferior, then design must compensate. Rule #1 in Engineering 101. I'm a retired engineer. My logic is not flawed.

Back to the original question I posted. Has anyone ridden a Boron Carbon Frame and can tell me what the ride quality was like? I am curious.

 

[Forrest Root]

Design is relegated to material composition. If the material is inferior, then design must compensate. Rule #1 in Engineering 101. I'm a retired engineer. My logic is not flawed.

Back to the original question I posted. Has anyone ridden a Boron Carbon Frame and can tell me what the ride quality was like? I am curious.

Of the popular materials being used in bikes, exactly which ones are inferior? That's right, there is no answer. As an engineer, you're showing the limitations of your technical knowledge by asking what the ride quality of a given material was like. There is no absolute answer. Just as aluminum frames don't have to ride harsh, steel frames don't have to be real and lively, and CF doesn't have to be dead, CF w/ boron doesn't have to ride any particular way.

 

[master2129]

Of the popular materials being used in bikes, exactly which ones are inferior? That's right, there is no answer. As an engineer, you're showing the limitations of your technical knowledge by asking what the ride quality of a given material was like. There is no absolute answer. Just as aluminum frames don't have to ride harsh, steel frames don't have to be real and lively, and CF doesn't have to be dead, CF w/ boron doesn't have to ride any particular way.

Forrest that still doesn't answer my question. And I'm not looking for an absolute answer - only opinions from actual riders.

Back to my original question: Has anyone ridden a Carbon Boron Frameset recently? If so, how was the quality of the ride in your opinion? Who is the manufacturer of the frameset?

 

[spinwax]

Didn't they use Boron in steel bikes in the 80's as well?

When do we get to see Beryllium bikes? Or other slightly radioactive light metals? Something that will get you tracked by a NEST helicopter.

Beryllium bikes have already been built ... I would say about ten+ yrs ago American Bicycle built one. It was close to 30k if I remember. I don't think they are around any longer.

 

[prschatt]

Wondering, is it the price of Boron, or the fact that there are people willing to pay 6000 or more for a raw frame?......almost like price isn't an issue if, like you say, there is a good marketing hook...

Boron ( from parent mineral borax) is mined by the Ton, in fact it was going to be a substitute for fiberglass insulation. . Market demand for other uses put that on hold (semi conductors, non-toxic insecticides and flea control et al). Used in laundry soap :Boraxo? (if you're old enough you'll remember "20 mule train" that carried Borax. A by-product , Boric acid costs about 3/lb at any drug store. China and the US are major supplier. The addition of Boron to fiberglass and CF is very inexpensive.

 

[Mdeth1313]

so, is ROXCYCLE asian for Fox Cycle?
I can get away w/ this, I'm half-asian

is the other half red-neck? :blush2:

 

[Forrest Root]

Boron ( from parent mineral borax) is mined by the Ton, in fact it was going to be a substitute for fiberglass insulation. . Market demand for other uses put that on hold (semi conductors, non-toxic insecticides and flea control et al). Used in laundry soap :Boraxo? (if you're old enough you'll remember "20 mule train" that carried Borax. A by-product , Boric acid costs about 3/lb at any drug store. China and the US are major supplier. The addition of Boron to fiberglass and CF is very inexpensive.

It does depend on what you mean. Boron as used in some products is actually boron sputtered onto a thin metal filament and used in as a unidirectional matte.

 

[danl1]

Design is relegated to material composition. If the material is inferior, then design must compensate. Rule #1 in Engineering 101. I'm a retired engineer. My logic is not flawed.

Back to the original question I posted. Has anyone ridden a Boron Carbon Frame and can tell me what the ride quality was like? I am curious.

When you push on the pedals, the bike goes forward. That's what it rides like.

Turn it around - what is the ride quality of an aluminum bike? Most folks answer 'stiff', but that's only because of Cannondale's late 1980's popularization of massively oversized tubes. Prior to that, aluminum bikes were commonly made in standard diameters, and (with the Vitus as a prime example) much derided for being noodly.

Folks who like the ride of steel have never ridden (or conveniently forget) a the misery of a Huffy Scout. People who think Ti is too whippy somehow neglect all of Robbie McEwen's wins on a Litespeed (not always painted as such, though.)

Materials have differing qualities that are input parameters to design. That does not relegate design to material composition. If you choose a relevant specification for a bike's 'ride quality', whatever you happen to mean by that, it can be achieved by any of the commonly-used frame materials, and quite a few uncommon ones. The only meaningful difference will be that the 'superior' material will allow a lighter final product that meets the spec.

For reference, claiming to be an engineer on an internet forum holds no weight. The logical flaw is that many of the folks reading it actually are.

 

[Johnnysmooth]

I did see a Beryllium bike once at a trade show. It was a demo built up by a defense contractor just to show what they could do with the material. They were also looking at the possiblity of providing the tube material to some innovative frame builder.

Man that bike was light! But when I looked closer at it, noticed one of the seat stay welds had separated from the brake bridge. Pointed it out to them and they quietly rolled the bike away behind the booth curtain. Never saw or heard again about any Beryllium bike.