[koyaanisqatsi]

++++ I'd also love to see a detailed comparison between the Dogma and Colnago EPS.
I was torn between the two and just placed my order for the one that I thought would serve me better for years to come.

I did talk with several dealers that carry both and got some very interesting comments.

I'd be interested in which of those two bikes you chose, although I assume you chose the Dogma because you are posting in this forum. I could be wrong. I'd also be interested in the comments made by dealers. There is no need to mention which dealers made any comments.

I'll say that I ordered a Dogma 60.1 over the Colnago EPS, largely because I did not like Colnago's business practices. Both are fine bikes, but Colnago made the decision easy for me.

 

[CliveDS]

Easton have a good explanation for this method.

ENHANCED RESIN SYSTEM
The weakest areas in a traditional carbon-fiber component are the tiny spaces between the fibers that contain only resin. To radically improve strength and toughness in these critical areas, Easton Scientists have developed an innovative Enhanced Resin System using carbon nanotubes (CNT). Carbon nanotubes are an array of carbon atoms arranged in a pattern of hexagons and pentagons (similar to the pattern found on soccer balls). These structures can be manufactured in tubular shapes one billionth of a meter in diameter, hence the name nanotube. Carbon nanotubes have been called “the strongest fiber that will ever be made”. Nanotubes have a strength-to-weight ratio orders of magnitude greater than steel.

Easton’s proprietary process impregnates the resin/fiber matrix with evenly distributed carbon nanotubes. The addition of real carbon nanotubes greatly improves the toughness and strengthens Easton’s already legendary components.

 

[toonraid]

To make it even stronger.

............. and lighter - which is what I said - glue does not have the same value as carbon in a frame!

 

[nicensleazy]

Hey CLTracer, what you say is true - no one has lost a race because of it but it seems like several people I know have complained not only of the chainring but of the front derailleur being flexy and not shifting crisply. I know a couple of guys using DA fr der to make up for it, along with DA cassette.

Hey Toonraid, I can see why you are suspicious of iridepinarello's review. It comes across more as an advertisement to buy it than as an objective review. I can provide a slightly different perspective, owning all the bikes in the Pinarello race lineup except the FM1. The Prince Carbon is a lighter, more brittle version of the Dogma 60.1. It is lighter than the Dogma 60.1 (because Dogma's new aero seatpost and fork are heavier, as well as the additional reinforcement Pinarello has put into the carbon weave, which they call nano-somethingorother). I have never had bad luck with my Prince but I have 2 friends whose Prince frames have cracked and were covered by warranty luckily. In fact, one of them paid the difference for the Dogma 60.1. The Prince feels a lot harsher than the new Dogma, partly because of the nano-stuff in the carbon, and partly because Pinarello has strangely made the Dogma 60.1 more VERTICALLY compliant, while laterally stiffer. It is a very strange feeling -- I'll explain what I mean -- it's not good.

When I first climbed on the carbon Doggie, I thought it was sweet because the first thing you'll notice is how smooth it is. Usually, I would argue that a Colnago C50 is one of the smoothest riding bikes made, but the Doggie makes the C50 feel almost harsh by comparison. But my impression went quickly from positive to negative on the first steep climb on the Dogma, because I actually felt a "bouncy" sensation. I guarantee you it was the frame. Here's my build - you'll see nothing on it is flexy:

However, the frame felt like it was flexing vertically right down the middle of the bottom bracket. I notice it on very steep inclines where I'm out of the saddle in a small gear (34x23 - since I have compact with 11-25 on this one). It's not a characteristic I like. On the other hand, I never felt that on my Prince.

.

So I feel Pinarello decided to "market" its way out of the Prince's defect issues and make the Dogma more reliable, slightly heavier (exact same build with LW standard wheels -- yielded about a half pound difference in weight), and smoother, but built in some vertical compliance to achieve the smoothness. In fact, it feels more like the Paris. It would be interesting to see how both bikes (Doggie and Prince) would fare in a more scientific machine-based flex test. Although I would be willing to bet the Prince breaks first....

I also always prefer to feel the road more, as long as it is not a bone-chattering aluminum-inspired harshness. iridepinarello referred to Porsches in his review so I'll use the same analogy -- I'm not sure I would liken the Dogma to a 997 Turbo -- it felt more like a Mercedes (or dare I say Lexus given how much it deadens the road) than a Porsche. The Prince on the other hand, feels more like a Porsche (or even a Lotus given its harshness). I would therefore even argue the Prince is actually faster in most race situations given its weight advantage and stiffness.

Disclaimer: I got rid of my Prince frame, and plan to get rid of my Dogma after next year. The one frame I would NEVER sell however (and I have collected several since they are no longer made), is the magnesium Dogma FPX (not the first gen with the proprietary BB but the latest rev before extinction). This I think is the best kept secret and was unfortunately (or fortunately for some) a marketing failure with the masses going for carbon. I would liken this in the Porsche analogy to the naturally aspirated masterpiece 997 GT3RS. It has the most incredible ride. Only drawback is that it's really a fairweather bike given the properties of magnesium, but you put it on a stationary trainer and you can actually prove to yourself that this bike is much stiffer in the bottom bracket than both the carbon Dogma and the Prince, despite what any bike shop markets. If you ask Fausto Pinarello, which bike is the best they have ever made, and he will tell you personally that it's the magnesium Dogma: (sorry, cell phone photo)

Hope that helps as a credible review. If you're considering getting the Dogma 60.1, I would save the money and buy yourself a set of Boras with a Prince instead.

Informative read - thanks for posting.

 

[iridepinarello]

Hey iridepinarello, btw, no disrespect meant in my response above to your review. I just wanted to provide a different perspective for toonraid given his prior question.

We should exchange notes on Pinarellos sometime as it's clearly an obsession for both of us.

LOL... no disrespect taken This is all in good fun, and yes, we should exchange notes for sure. It's always nice to chat with another obsessed Pinarello fan.

I would love to hear about you Lightweight wheels. Never had a pair but want to get them.

PM me when you're free and give me your phone #.

 

[iridepinarello]

Easton have a good explanation for this method.

ENHANCED RESIN SYSTEM
The weakest areas in a traditional carbon-fiber component are the tiny spaces between the fibers that contain only resin. To radically improve strength and toughness in these critical areas, Easton Scientists have developed an innovative Enhanced Resin System using carbon nanotubes (CNT). Carbon nanotubes are an array of carbon atoms arranged in a pattern of hexagons and pentagons (similar to the pattern found on soccer balls). These structures can be manufactured in tubular shapes one billionth of a meter in diameter, hence the name nanotube. Carbon nanotubes have been called “the strongest fiber that will ever be made”. Nanotubes have a strength-to-weight ratio orders of magnitude greater than steel.

Easton’s proprietary process impregnates the resin/fiber matrix with evenly distributed carbon nanotubes. The addition of real carbon nanotubes greatly improves the toughness and strengthens Easton’s already legendary components.

Thanks for posting this Clive. Very informative.

Regardless of the technology, you still have to pedal the damn things

 

[MinnBobber]

Dogma vs EPS dealer comments

I'd be interested in which of those two bikes you chose, although I assume you chose the Dogma because you are posting in this forum. I could be wrong. I'd also be interested in the comments made by dealers. There is no need to mention which dealers made any comments.

I'll say that I ordered a Dogma 60.1 over the Colnago EPS, largely because I did not like Colnago's business practices. Both are fine bikes, but Colnago made the decision easy for me.

koyaanisqatsi, I'd love to have either bike but actually chose the EPS over the Dogma. I really wanted to get the Dogma as IMO it is hotter/sexier looking and I really appreciate the technology it uses. But for me, I felt the EPS was the better longterm bike if I looked beyond which had more appeal and really analyzed which fit my needs/wants better. For others, the Dogma may very well be best for them.
I still search out anything I can find on both bikes.
I shopped all over the US as I wanted either a 2010 Dogma or 2009 EPS as I liked the 2009 paint schemes much better than the 2010-again just my opinion.
I tried to talk to as many dealers as possible that sold both. The boiled down descriptions/comments on the two bikes are:
-Dogma- fantastic bike, more modern / modern looking with monocoque construction. Maybe stiffer. Faster handling. Likes more weight on the front. Sharper turning/turn on a dime, you need to show care as it turns so quick. You need to be attentive at all times/ on fast descents as it turns if you even think about turning.
-EPS -themes from dealers: also a great bike. Dogma hotter looking while EPS more classic/traditional looking. Best ride quality of any bike. Best descending bike, like on rails. Great technology but hidden inside the frame, the torsional stiffening while vertically compliant internal bracing.Quick steering but smoother transition from straight to turning than the Dogma. More forgiving. You can descend at 50 mph with hands on upper bars. So solid handling.
One dealer inspects inside of all frames with bore scope, looking for any cracks or imperfections and he said inside of Colnago is by far the cleanest of any of the 10 top end bikes he sells and no, you don't need this but I think it shows the overall care Colnago takes with the build process. He said he has never seen a Colnago with any hidden frame issues. He would not name the brands/didn't want to throw dirt but said he had seen some other top end brands with frames that had internal cracks/ tools glued into the resin accidently, etc.
Some dealers liked the EPS English threaded bottom bracket over the Italian threaded Dogma.
One said Dogma is getting more popular as Pinarello has much more $$ available for advertising/sponsorship/marketing/creating demand as both list for $5500 and EPS is still 100% made in Italy so Pin has much more profit to spend on creating more demand. That was very interesting comment.That dealer already had orders for 25+ Dogmas, he thought they were two best bikes made, he owned an EPS but also loved the Dogma.
Dealer comments were that both were absolutely fantastic bikes with slightly different ride characteristics. I hope I love my EPS and would love to own a Dogma in the future. I like how you can get a dogma designed for internal Di2 wiring, so if Di2 ever gets more realistic on pricing you can have hidden wiring.
I would have gotten the black/red/silver Dogma and most dealers who saw that color in person said it was absolutely awesome so your bike should really be a looker.
Bob, still waiting for my delivery.

 

[koyaanisqatsi]

Interesting Comments

koyaanisqatsi, I'd love to have either bike but actually chose the EPS over the Dogma. I really wanted to get the Dogma as IMO it is hotter/sexier looking and I really appreciate the technology it uses. But for me, I felt the EPS was the better longterm bike if I looked beyond which had more appeal and really analyzed which fit my needs/wants better. For others, the Dogma may very well be best for them.
I still search out anything I can find on both bikes.
I shopped all over the US as I wanted either a 2010 Dogma or 2009 EPS as I liked the 2009 paint schemes much better than the 2010-again just my opinion.
I tried to talk to as many dealers as possible that sold both. The boiled down descriptions/comments on the two bikes are:
-Dogma- fantastic bike, more modern / modern looking with monocoque construction. Maybe stiffer. Faster handling. Likes more weight on the front. Sharper turning/turn on a dime, you need to show care as it turns so quick. You need to be attentive at all times/ on fast descents as it turns if you even think about turning.
-EPS -themes from dealers: also a great bike. Dogma hotter looking while EPS more classic/traditional looking. Best ride quality of any bike. Best descending bike, like on rails. Great technology but hidden inside the frame, the torsional stiffening while vertically compliant internal bracing.Quick steering but smoother transition from straight to turning than the Dogma. More forgiving. You can descend at 50 mph with hands on upper bars. So solid handling.
One dealer inspects inside of all frames with bore scope, looking for any cracks or imperfections and he said inside of Colnago is by far the cleanest of any of the 10 top end bikes he sells and no, you don't need this but I think it shows the overall care Colnago takes with the build process. He said he has never seen a Colnago with any hidden frame issues. He would not name the brands/didn't want to throw dirt but said he had seen some other top end brands with frames that had internal cracks/ tools glued into the resin accidently, etc.
Some dealers liked the EPS English threaded bottom bracket over the Italian threaded Dogma.
One said Dogma is getting more popular as Pinarello has much more $$ available for advertising/sponsorship/marketing/creating demand as both list for $5500 and EPS is still 100% made in Italy so Pin has much more profit to spend on creating more demand. That was very interesting comment.That dealer already had orders for 25+ Dogmas, he thought they were two best bikes made, he owned an EPS but also loved the Dogma.
Dealer comments were that both were absolutely fantastic bikes with slightly different ride characteristics. I hope I love my EPS and would love to own a Dogma in the future. I like how you can get a dogma designed for internal Di2 wiring, so if Di2 ever gets more realistic on pricing you can have hidden wiring.
I would have gotten the black/red/silver Dogma and most dealers who saw that color in person said it was absolutely awesome so your bike should really be a looker.
Bob, still waiting for my delivery.

I suspect those two bikes are very close in overall handling and ride quality. It's hard to know which bike one would prefer if you you live with and ride both for a couple months. I'm sure you'll like the EPS. Let's face it...there is always some chance that you note some characteristic you just don't like, but that could be due to the components more than the frame. The same could be said of the Dogma. In the RBR Reviews, someone bought a Serotta for $22,000 (yes $22k!), but didn't really like the bike. He may have chose some very high end components that simply didn't work well together. I'm just guessing.

I think I've given my reasons for not going with the EPS...you can get the 2010 EPS in PRZA (R&A claims to have an exclusive on it, but a couple other retailers can get it) although my retailer had to fight for it; you can get the PR82 Saronni if you know who to go to. I liked the MTBK and had one on order. But I got fed up with Colnago's paint scheme and color games. They do not serve the customer or the retailers well and Colnago needs to make clear what is and what is not available. So I changed the order to the Dogma. I'd probably be happy with either fame. Still waiting for my bike as well, but I live in Western NY State and we won't have bikeable weather for at lest 3 months.

k.

 

[pharding]

Before I bought my Pinarello Prince, I considered the Colnago EPS. Unfortunately the Colnago color schemes are amateurish in my opinion as an architect and Colnago's reputation in the Chicago area is that of being undependable .

 

[mriddle]

Dogma vs. EPS

It's amazing how many people want to compare these two frames.
In actuality, these are two of the most contrasting carbon frames on the market.
I would love to own one, but would never consider the other.....

 

[apark]

LOL... no disrespect taken This is all in good fun, and yes, we should exchange notes for sure. It's always nice to chat with another obsessed Pinarello fan.

I would love to hear about you Lightweight wheels. Never had a pair but want to get them.

PM me when you're free and give me your phone #.

Dude, just pm'ed you my info.

LWs are great but not worth the $ diff vs. Boras. They are better climbing wheels due to weight but the carbon/kevlar spokes deaden the ride a bit. Boras are much sexier and give you better road feel. I like feelin' the ride, if you know what I mean. And sexy - I like sexy too.

 

[koyaanisqatsi]

Reasons for comparisons

It's amazing how many people want to compare these two frames.
In actuality, these are two of the most contrasting carbon frames on the market.
I would love to own one, but would never consider the other.....

I think the reason for the comparison is that these two frames are directed at the same groups. Racers, bicycling enthusiasts, and anyone who wants to believe that they have the best possible frame. Of course, these two frames are only among many best frames available. My bike shop owner insists that the best frames are now built in the U.S. But he is a retailer for Pinarello Colnago and others, but not Specialized or Trek.

k.

 

[koyaanisqatsi]

I hear you

Before I bought my Pinarello Prince, I considered the Colnago EPS. Unfortunately the Colnago color schemes are amateurish in my opinion as an architect and Colnago's reputation in the Chicago area is that of being undependable .

The Colnago paint schemes and colors shown in the Colnago catalogue and at most of their retailer Web sites are not so good. There are only two online retailers for Colnago in the U.S--R&A Cycles and Wrench Science. But there are a bunch of custom colors available for the 2010 EPS: PRZA, PR82, MTBK and others. They fact that they are available but not openly advertised, seemed to be available through only some retailers, etc. sealed the deal to move to Pinarello. I knew what was available and what I could get. Sure Pinarello seems to do some limited production runs of certain colors (Team Sky for example), but I believe they won't covertly favor one retailer over another.

I can't speak to the unreliability of Colnago, but I've heard the same comment as the one you made several times. Pinarello seems to honor warranties and handle issues w/o any problems.

 

[JeremyP]

MinnBobber, very good description of the two bikes. Saw a Team Sky training bike on the road this morn, looks fast with Di2!

 

[vavadidi]

Hi,

Soryy for my english... I speak normaly french. I have a question. I would like to change my frame. I have a BMC slc01. I had big problem with BMC and the guarantee.

I look of another BMC, the SLR01, a TIME RXR and the most beautiful for me, the DOGMA60.1 CliveDS you have tested the BMC and the DOGMA. Could you tell me what the differance, the positiv or negativ points...

For me the dogma have two negatives points. The weight et the seatpost.

Thank's for answer.

 

[Jbartmc]

I think the reason for the comparison is that these two frames are directed at the same groups. Racers, bicycling enthusiasts, and anyone who wants to believe that they have the best possible frame. Of course, these two frames are only among many best frames available. My bike shop owner insists that the best frames are now built in the U.S. But he is a retailer for Pinarello Colnago and others, but not Specialized or Trek.

k.

I am curious if the shop owner is speaking about small-scale frame makers as opposed to the big manufacturers you mentioned.

 

[koyaanisqatsi]

He didn't qualify his statement.

I am curious if the shop owner is speaking about small-scale frame makers as opposed to the big manufacturers you mentioned.

He said simply that the best frames are now made in the U.S. [Facing facts, the U.S. isn't the best at much anymore.] So I really can't address your point. I assumed, and I know that usually gets one into hot water, that he meant "in general and of all frames made". I've noted that he sells Pinarello and Colnago (he's not listed as an Colnago-authorized dealer, so no warranty according to Colnago U.S.!!!!!), as well as Felt, Masi, and probably others. And of course, he's the dealer I bought my Lynskey titanium frame/bike from. You can check his Web site @ http://www.tomsprobike.com/ but he doesn't have much listed right now (winter in Buffalo, NY!). That shop is probably the best bike shop in Western New York...I'm unaware of anyone more knowledgeable and who carries strictly pro-level bikes in this area. It's not quite local to me...about 1-1/2 hour drive with autobahn style driving.

 

[waypastfast]

This thread is a great read! I am wondering if anyone can tell me how much of difference there would be from going from a 2002 Prince SL to a new Dogma Think or 60.1? I love the geometry of my bike but the Prince feels like it lacks the snap of the new carbon frames. Thanks!

 

[jathanas]

I've owned both, the Prince and the Dogma2. To add my 2 cents to the discussion:

1. The Prince is not lighter than the Dogma2.
2. The Dogma 2 sprints and climbs just as well as the Prince, whilst having a more comfortable ride. I also find it very stable during cornering and descending.

I'd happily ride either bike for the rest of my life, and feel like a lucky bastard each and every day.