[BNA_roadie]

Casati - These have a great reputation, get the EL/OS if they have your size. http://www.racycles.com/sd/catalog/sd_rf_casati_249036_products.htm

I have a custom Casati Laser, not lugged, that rides much better than my Merlin Cyrene. I want a piece of old world art, with the lugged.

 

[BNA_roadie]

Don't forget to check out eBay.

I have a Tommasini already. If I were to buy another frame, and cost were no object, it would be the Hampsten Giro '88, partially because I admire Andy himself, and the Richard Sachs lugs.

Gios Compact Pro from importer/dealer excelsports.com. Get them to order in a threaded steel fork for you, for whatever reason they only carry threadless. Frame appears to be a great value. Short top tube and steep seat angles.

Viner, Casati, Colnago Master, Merckx MX Leader - gvhbikes.com. Good prices.

Casati - These have a great reputation, get the EL/OS if they have your size. http://www.racycles.com/sd/catalog/sd_rf_casati_249036_products.htm

Marinoni - http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/, Italian born, now living in Quebec. They do their paint and chroming in house. They may not show lugged in their catalog, but they will still build it to order.

Mondonico/Torelli - see your local bike shop. Expensive.

Carrera, Ciocc, DeBernardi, Guerciotti, Moser, Pinarello, closeouts - http://www.highcaliper.com/

Cinelli Super Corsa - nice chrome and paint. A classic with standard size tubing. http://stores.ebay.com/trek-2a-Bicy...Store-4-Tires-nMore_Road-Frame_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZ1QQsclZallQQsotimedisplayZ2QQtZkm

DeRosa closeouts - www.ridecampy.com

Masi - from his son in Italy, importer seems to be a bit of a "card" - http://www.creative-web-sites.com/milano_sport/homepage.htm

US builders, there are one or two of them, some you probably have never heard of that produce stunning frames (like Chris Kvale?) www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/USA.htm


and that is just the start...

Man, thanks for all the links, just made my job just a bit harder.

 

[Nessism]

Fair enough. You still haven't told me 1 single builder who uses MIG for dropout construction. So, if you know of one and it can be verified by website, phone, whatever then I will eat my words. I don't believe it.

Richard

I bought a custom made frame from a small builder out in Los Angeles named John Waite, and he MIG'ed many a frame together. He builds mostly track frames so appearance is not a big issue for him. On the frame he made for me, he TIG'ed the main triangle but MIG'ed the dropouts - I watched him. I understand that one man is not an island, but you seem to insist that no one uses MIG and this is wrong.

I've read the framebuilders list every day for the last eight years or so. http://search.bikelist.org/query.as...=&FMMod=-1d&FMModDate=&SortBy=MsgDate[a]&Scope=framebuilders&RecordsPerPage=250
The merits of MIG welding come up as a topic every so often there and the general consensus is that MIG is not advisable for thin walled steel tubing. I agree with this. After watching John MIG dropouts though, I do believe that MIG is viable for certain applications. Also, there are LOTS of Asian framebuilding companies that use MIG these days. My understanding is that some very nice Swiss built MIG outfits are available that produce good results.

The whole issue of MIG came up because I referenced Columbus's catalogue, which lists WELDING materials to use, not brazing materials. I'm not endorsing MIG myself.

As far as preferred joining operations, I just dug out an old Columbus product catalogue and they state regarding the then new Genius tubing "Developed exclusively for TIG welding". This reference is made due to the super short butts on these tubes. Columbus has since added more tubes to the Genius family and they now state "Genius is conceived for TIG welding but different tubes are available for lug and fillet brazing too." Columbus seems to be stating that both joining methods are viable depending on the specific tube used. The tubes Columbus added to the Genius line for brazing application have more meat on the ends because of the higher total heat needed for brazing compared to TIG. You can draw your own conclusion on what this all means relative to the modern super-steel tubesets, many of which are thinner, with butts just as short, as the origonal Genius.

I would love to meet at Interbike! Sounds like fun. Not sure I can make it though. I'm a big fan of dedaccici tubing. As a garage framebuilder myself and I'm on a first name basis with Joe Bringhelli - Dedacciai's tubing distributor in the US. In fact, Joe helped teach me framebuilding when I lived in Cleveland. No doubt he knows the guys you talk of.
Ed

 

[Ricky2]

As far as preferred joining operations, I just dug out an old Columbus product catalogue and they state regarding the then new Genius tubing "Developed exclusively for TIG welding".

Ed

Genius tubes, notwithstanding, are what now? Over 10 years old? And the differential butts are .7mm at the ends. Quite a difference compared to the newer steels of today with butts of around .5mm. In any case, you were right COlumbus did market that tubeset as great for TIG. This won't happen again. If it did, then they would have stated as such. As to the guy in CA who MIG welds dropouts. OK. You did find one guy. I suppose that the dropout being thicker than regular tubing, maybe you could justify MIG instead of TIG or fillet-brazing there. Very uncommon though, since your example is the 1st that I've heard of a builder doing MIG welding.

Dave Levy at Ti Cycles, who does both TIG welding and fillet-brazing, and who also builds all of the Hampsten Steel S3 frames had an option to do the construction with TIG, which would be alot faster and more economical. Or to fillet-braze which is the most time consuming to do. The choice is clear. Fillet-brazing. This speaks volumes. Here's a builder who does both and he chose fillet-brazing, even if it wasn't more economical. The ends are .5mm. You will never see any filing undercutting on any Ti Cycles frames or Hampten frames or the frames go in the dumpster before they get to a customer.

 

[Willito]

American Made Masterpiece

Has anyone forgotton about a little company in Wisconsin called Waterford. They make beautiful lugged steel bikes and custom sizing is included in the price. Not to mention the paint and finish are second to none. Just call up there and talk to Richand Schwinn direct and he can create your dream bike.

 

[Nessism]

How about this?

Genius tubes, notwithstanding, are what now? Over 10 years old? And the differential butts are .7mm at the ends. Quite a difference compared to the newer steels of today with butts of around .5mm. In any case, you were right COlumbus did market that tubeset as great for TIG. This won't happen again. If it did, then they would have stated as such. As to the guy in CA who MIG welds dropouts. OK. You did find one guy. I suppose that the dropout being thicker than regular tubing, maybe you could justify MIG instead of TIG or fillet-brazing there. Very uncommon though, since your example is the 1st that I've heard of a builder doing MIG welding.

Dave Levy at Ti Cycles, who does both TIG welding and fillet-brazing, and who also builds all of the Hampsten Steel S3 frames had an option to do the construction with TIG, which would be alot faster and more economical. Or to fillet-braze which is the most time consuming to do. The choice is clear. Fillet-brazing. This speaks volumes. Here's a builder who does both and he chose fillet-brazing, even if it wasn't more economical. The ends are .5mm. You will never see any filing undercutting on any Ti Cycles frames or Hampten frames or the frames go in the dumpster before they get to a customer.

Just because Dave Levy fillets S3 for Hampten doesn't mean that the process is superior. Fillet brazed frames have a mistique about them due to the exacting skill required to build them. This is just the ticket for a high end, high cost frame like a Hampsten.

Regarding the issue at hand, I retract my statement that "EOM16.5, UltraFoco, S3, and similar, are intended to be TIG welded". I do not have strict documentation to make this claim.

I do disagree with your assertion though that fillet is preferred. Further, my assertion is that fillet brazing thin walled tubesets like these requires the utmost care and that TIG is a more fault tolerant process all things considered. Far more frames are built using TIG than fillet brazing and this is not a coincidence.


Ok, none now.

Ed

 

[rwbadley]

Has anyone forgotton about a little company in Wisconsin called Waterford. They make beautiful lugged steel bikes and custom sizing is included in the price. Not to mention the paint and finish are second to none. Just call up there and talk to Richand Schwinn direct and he can create your dream bike.

I'll second that. R. Schwinn is a knowledgable and very helpful guy. They really build some gorgeous frames at Waterford.

 

[Ricky2]

Just because Dave Levy fillets S3 for Hampten doesn't mean that the process is superior. Fillet brazed frames have a mistique about them due to the exacting skill required to build them. This is just the ticket for a high end, high cost frame like a Hampsten.

Regarding the issue at hand, I retract my statement that "EOM16.5, UltraFoco, S3, and similar, are intended to be TIG welded". I do not have strict documentation to make this claim.

I do disagree with your assertion though that fillet is preferred. Further, my assertion is that fillet brazing thin walled tubesets like these requires the utmost care and that TIG is a more fault tolerant process all things considered. Far more frames are built using TIG than fillet brazing and this is not a coincidence.


Ok, none now.

Ed

The point is Dave Levy made the choice, not based on economics, but based on performance. The fact is True Temper recommends fillet brazing for S3 tubes due to the razor thin .5mm ends. TIG welding is faster, but not better in this application, and IMO certainly not better in the new razor-thin .5mm tubes such as these.

Your assertion that just because more of the newer "thin-walled" frames are TIG welded equates to TIG welding being preferrable is false. I mean we are talking about the newer thin walled steels such as EOM16.5, UltraFoco, S3, right? There are as many, or more, builders that are fillet brazing the new steels as TIG welding.

 

[TrailNut]

Viner Competition, Dedacciai COM 12.5 steel, lugged $575

www.viner.it or
http://www.vinerbikes.com/
but acutally buy it from http://gvhbikes.com/

example: Viner Competition Dedacciai COM 12.5, cobalt blue w/threadless carbon fiber fork, 56.5cm t.t., NEW. A classic lugged frameset, handmade in Italy exclusively for GVH Bikes. $575.

 

[strong bad]

take a look at these
http://columbinecycle.com/our_bicycles.html