[foggypeake]

Yeah, unions have done nothing for us.

 

[terbennett]

They may need unions but, unions here are the reason those business are gone. We have laws now,we dont need unions. Sorry, all they do now is protect the turds.

+1.....:thumbsup:

 

[terbennett]

Yeah man....and workers in China enjoy a quality of life we in the west can only dream of.

We can be as sarcastic as we want but the average worker in China puts away 40% of their income into savings. Sounds like the cost of living is very low too. Not only that, they are asking for raises and getting them. Ever try operating a business here in the States? Here in California, Worker's Comp Insurance is so high, alot of small businesses went under when the new costs went into affect. We can say big businesses are bad but they are the ones that want regulation. Heavy regulatons destry small businesses- big businesses just move their operations to avoid it. Maybe the problem is that you're looking at life from your perspective. I doubt the average worker in China has put themselves in debt to the point that they can't pay their bills. Serious, the Chinese worker makes enough to put away 40% of their income and still have live comfortably. I couldn't do that. I have bills to pay.

 

[Opus51569]

I recently purchased the 2010 Le Tour Legacy. A little heavy (even for steel) but so far I'm happy with it.

 

[terbennett]

I'll agree that unions can be self centered and really muck up things. But without unions businesses can suck the life out of workers in a heartbeat. I work part time for a company where I have no benefits; no vacation, no health insurance, no paid holidays, nothing. They use me. I use them. There's no loyalty on either side. Modern business in the modern age.

With the tougher labor laws introduced in the last 75 years here in the US, unions are pretty much redundant. They suck the life out of the workers. It's not that the average worker is underpaid; the union worker is overpaid. The sad part is that due to union jobs, costs are higher; making it harder to live as a non-union worker since those increased paychecks equal higher costs for everything else. Government alone has the highest number of union jobs. Go to the port in San Pedro, California- where most of the stuff imported here comes through. The average lift driver is making over $200,000 a year to move a box off of a stack of boxes and placing it on a skelton tractor-trailer frame. There's an example of what labor unions have done to our government. The benefit are good and they pay is good for most union jobs but they always want more. You work part-time for a company. By law, if you work under 32 hours, the company doesn't have to offer insurance. Sounds fair, Some companies will offer it though. My wife works for Disneyland and even part-timers can opt for insurance benefits. Insurance is expensive no matter where you go and it makes no sense to spend most of your money on it on part-time wages. Most of the PT workers don't opt for it because of this.

 

[terbennett]

This might wind up in "Politics Only", but if you like a 40 hour work week, if you like paid overtime, if you like paid vacation and sick time, if you like a safe workplace, if you like equal pay for equal work (not really there yet), if you like child labor laws, etc., thank a union.

I'll agree that many unions became as corrupt as the entities they were fighting, but the average working person would be a heck of a lot worse off without them.

I can thank a union for what they've done throughout the years to protect the workplace but not that the laws are in place, they are no longer needed. Now they are just extortionists.

 

[chas0039]

If you go to the Waterford web site, they have a huge set of scans from the Schwinn catalogs going back 1895 then through 2000.

When I wanted a Schwinn, I bought a Waterford; no regrets, I wish I had done so sooner.

This Schwinn from 2005 would have been fun to own, not ride though as my days of pumping 20+ lb bikes are over.

We are talking about Schwinn, not unions, right?

 

[Scooper]

IMHO, the labor problem at Schwinn's Chicago factory was that the union chosen to represent the workers was the UAW, which had been losing membership and power and needed to show it was still relevant by making Schwinn a UAW shop and using hardball tactics in negotiating with management. The UAW negotiated with Schwinn as if it were GM, Ford, or Chrysler, not a 2,000 employee bicycle manufacturer struggling to survive as it competed with imported bikes made with cheap labor. Schwinn simply couldn't afford to make the concessions the UAW wanted and remain solvent, so the company moved production to Greenville, MS, which was more management friendly. One significant problem with moving production to Greenville was that Schwinn management had failed to understand the logistics of getting raw materials and components to Greenville and getting finished product out of Greenville. Also, managing the labor force in Greenville to produce quality product efficiently was more of a challenge than initially anticipated.

 

[SlimDandy]

IMHO, the labor problem at Schwinn's Chicago factory was that the union chosen to represent the workers was the UAW, which had been losing membership and power and needed to show it was still relevant by making Schwinn a UAW shop and using hardball tactics in negotiating with management. The UAW negotiated with Schwinn as if it were GM, Ford, or Chrysler, not a 2,000 employee bicycle manufacturer struggling to survive as it competed with imported bikes made with cheap labor. Schwinn simply couldn't afford to make the concessions the UAW wanted and remain solvent, so the company moved production to Greenville, MS, which was more management friendly. One significant problem with moving production to Greenville was that Schwinn management had failed to understand the logistics of getting raw materials and components to Greenville and getting finished product out of Greenville. Also, managing the labor force in Greenville to produce quality product efficiently was more of a challenge than initially anticipated.

You're a real quality kind of guy, Scoop! :thumbsup:

Thank you for your contribution...

 

[DaveG]

good points, but...

We can be as sarcastic as we want but the average worker in China puts away 40% of their income into savings. Sounds like the cost of living is very low too. Not only that, they are asking for raises and getting them. Ever try operating a business here in the States? Here in California, Worker's Comp Insurance is so high, alot of small businesses went under when the new costs went into affect. We can say big businesses are bad but they are the ones that want regulation. Heavy regulatons destry small businesses- big businesses just move their operations to avoid it. Maybe the problem is that you're looking at life from your perspective. I doubt the average worker in China has put themselves in debt to the point that they can't pay their bills. Serious, the Chinese worker makes enough to put away 40% of their income and still have live comfortably. I couldn't do that. I have bills to pay.

I agree with many of your points. However, I wonder if the 40% savings rate in China is more of a cultural differences that one of salary. I would suspect that the average Chinese lives more frugally then most Americans and might consider many of the things we consider essential as luxuries (TV in every room, electronic gadgets, fancy car, etc) Plus they are probably not paying $100,000+ to send their kids to college, nor the medical costs we face. If someone has better knowledge of this I would be interested in your take

 

[chas0039]

The sources I have read say that a significant amount of the US inflation post-war (WWII) was due to the union demands for wages and benefits. These costs were passed on to the consumer who came to expect inflation as a part of life. Eventually, the countries where the war took place came back into production and began to export. Overseas labor and related costs being much lower and more in line with the real value, the US eventually lost a huge amount of union labor as business went overseas and de-unionized.

Big unions are still left in government and public education. I read that the next big government bail-out (read taxpayer) could well be the US Post Office where labor and related costs are 80% of the overall budget. The average postal worker currently makes $41 per hour and pays less than private or other government workers for their benefits.

We have come to pay a significant price premium for our standard of living.

Since you asked, sorry I'm off subject, but I guess not too much as this is, in part, what happened to Schwinn..... and the US auto industry and the US steel industry and the US electronics industry and the US garment industry. But I digress.

 

[tihsepa]

Like i said. Protect the turds.

 

[SystemShock]

Like i said. Protect the turds.

Yeah... kinda like how Boards of Directors protect their overpaid CEO friends by okaying multi-million dollar 'golden parachute' severance packages, which they still receive even if they drive the company into the ground. :idea:

There's certainly plenty of blame to go 'round.

But getting back to the subject, seems like Schwinn's demise occurred from a combination of not selling the products customers really wanted (staring in the '70s), not innovating or investing in equipment, and globalization/cheap foreign competition.
.

 

[Elfstone]

Yeah man....and workers in China enjoy a quality of life we in the west can only dream of. [/QUOTE]

^^^^^^^^^

 

[Elfstone]

Yeah man....and workers in China enjoy a quality of life we in the west can only dream of.

^^^^^^^^^

 

[raymonda]

Outsid eof their Paramount Series and a couple of other higher end models with the Schwinn badge, Schwinn has been crap since the 70's. Your idea of Schwinn was the pre 70's models. Heck the decline even started in the mid 60's for Schwinn. They could've learned a lot from Specialized old motto "Innovate or Die." Schwinn didn't innovate but wanted to charge a mint for their name. They actually went bankrupt like 20 years ago. Those that actually knew bikes avoided buying a Schwinns in the 80's. I used to race on Paramounts back in the 80's. While Paramounts were a different breed than your average Schwinn, there were many who gawked at the fact our team was riding Paramounts. Schwinn is now a name added to high and low end bikes made in Asia. Want a good new Schwinn? Look for the Fastback Series or the Paramount Series. Those aren't Walmart brand bikes and they are good. Want an American made custom bike with the Schwinn pedigree behind it? Look no further than Waterford. It will cost you a mint but those are the people that used to build for the Paramount racing division. When Schwinn went under, they started Waterford.

You are very much wrong about Schwinn's ability to put out a nice road bike. During the 80's they made some of the nicest mass produced frames available and used Columbus SL/SP and SLX and Tange Prestige tubing. When they sent them over seas for production they went to Panasonic, who at the time made some of the nicest steel frames available. Many of these frames still bring a good dollar on the use market and are much sought after.

Also, during the later 90's through the earlier 2000's they made several models with Reyonlds 853 tubing and these are very nice, too.

Anyway, here are some shots of my 1988 Prologue.

 

[SlimDandy]

You are very much wrong about Schwinn's ability to put out a nice road bike. During the 80's they made some of the nicest mass produced frames available and used Columbus SL/SP and SLX and Tange Prestige tubing. When they sent them over seas for production they went to Panasonic, who at the time made some of the nicest steel frames available. Many of these frames still bring a good dollar on the use market and are much sought after.

Also, during the later 90's through the earlier 2000's they made several models with Reyonlds 853 tubing and these are very nice, too.

Anyway, here are some shots of my 1988 Prologue.

Wow, Raymonda!

She's Absolutely Beautiful!

I Thank You for Your Wonderful Contribution :thumbsup:

 

[SlimDandy]

If you go to the Waterford web site, they have a huge set of scans from the Schwinn catalogs going back 1895 then through 2000.

When I wanted a Schwinn, I bought a Waterford; no regrets, I wish I had done so sooner.

This Schwinn from 2005 would have been fun to own, not ride though as my days of pumping 20+ lb bikes are over.

We are talking about Schwinn, not unions, right?

That Schwinn in the picture, looks exactly like my old bike...

Hey! Where'd ju get dat at?

 

[Lotophage]

Meh. What happened to schwinn?

One, they thought mountain bikes were going to be an overnight fad. They were late getting into MTBs and what they had wasn't all that great.

Two, they were burdened with their name. You may have fond memories of the high end schwinns, but for most of us, schwinn meant varsity. Heavy, crappy gears, steel wheels and brakes that didn't work...

Three, there was the dealer network. And the schwinn-specific sized parts. The dealers were (at least in my experience) awful. I remember in grade school going to get a bike with my mom. The schwinn shop was nothing compared to the Bike Line just down the street- better selection, staff that actually cared about fitting me to a bike properly...

Schwinn pretty much drove themselves out of business.

 

[SlimDandy]

Meh. What happened to schwinn?

One, they thought mountain bikes were going to be an overnight fad. They were late getting into MTBs and what they had wasn't all that great.

Two, they were burdened with their name. You may have fond memories of the high end schwinns, but for most of us, schwinn meant varsity. Heavy, crappy gears, steel wheels and brakes that didn't work...

Three, there was the dealer network. And the schwinn-specific sized parts. The dealers were (at least in my experience) awful. I remember in grade school going to get a bike with my mom. The schwinn shop was nothing compared to the Bike Line just down the street- better selection, staff that actually cared about fitting me to a bike properly...

Schwinn pretty much drove themselves out of business.

Well there certainly is some merit in your thoughts, Sir. However, I remember when a bike being heavy was a plus, not a minus.
I also remember when a Schwinn bicycle was very highly regarded and every kid on the block, wanted a Schwinn and nothing else would do.

Cheers! :thumbsup: