Lusting for new bike and want a lugged steel, looking at Tommasini. What others should I consider?
BNA_roadie
Cinelli and Colnago still make lugged frames but if I was buy new, I'd look at this. New frame but retro paint.BNA_roadie said:
http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?...ge=8&description=Super+Record+78+Frame+and+Fork&vendorCode=GIOS&major=1&minor=1
None.
IMHO Tommasini's are the most beautiful frames, but that's pretty subjective.
Pegoretti would be another choice.
IMHO Tommasini's are the most beautiful frames, but that's pretty subjective.
Pegoretti would be another choice.
Most companies no longer offer steel frames in their normal stock, however, if you call them, they will be more than happy to build you one. They miss working with lugs. Going this route, however, won't be cheap (but the frame will last so long, the question is, does it matter).
I've not seen a 16.5 OEM lugged frame, but I bet the ride would be great, and the weight wouldn't be bad. Let us know what you get.
I've not seen a 16.5 OEM lugged frame, but I bet the ride would be great, and the weight wouldn't be bad. Let us know what you get.
Others
Viner (gvhbikes.com)
Torelli (made in Italy, painted in US)
Colnago
Gios (in addition to the one posted - look on www.excelsports.com)
Have to ask the obvious question though - why limit yourself to Italian bikes? There are lots of other top-line eurpoean builders that are great alternatives as well.
Just make sure whatever you buy fits. When I was looking for a steel frame several years ago, I noticed that in general a lot of the Italian bikes had steeper angles and shorter top tubes than some of the others I was looking at. As much as I like a lugged frame, I ended up with a welded steel frame. Oh well, the next one will have lugs (maybe a custom Peter Mooney).
Viner (gvhbikes.com)
Torelli (made in Italy, painted in US)
Colnago
Gios (in addition to the one posted - look on www.excelsports.com)
Have to ask the obvious question though - why limit yourself to Italian bikes? There are lots of other top-line eurpoean builders that are great alternatives as well.
Just make sure whatever you buy fits. When I was looking for a steel frame several years ago, I noticed that in general a lot of the Italian bikes had steeper angles and shorter top tubes than some of the others I was looking at. As much as I like a lugged frame, I ended up with a welded steel frame. Oh well, the next one will have lugs (maybe a custom Peter Mooney).
i think Carrera still makes a couple of lugged models. Torelli only offers their Nitro Exress with lugs, everything else in tig'd, but they also sell Mondonico, which are all lugged. the Cinelli Supercorsa is still made, and a great deal at gvhbikes.
Nice frameset
This is truely a retro frameset; small diameter tubing and above the bottom bracket cable routing. Gotta love the Gios blue...
Dave Hickey said:
This is truely a retro frameset; small diameter tubing and above the bottom bracket cable routing. Gotta love the Gios blue...
Modern steel
EOM16.5, UltraFoco, S3, and similar, are intended to be TIG welded. Most tubes are shaped in some way and no lugs are available to fit the end sections. I've heard of some lugs called "Shield lugs", which are suspose to fit Dedacciai aero tubing, but these lugs are not readily available and are not easy to work with, even for a professional builder.
Bottom line is that you're not likely to see any lugged frames using any of these super-steel tubesets anytime soon.
Ed
euro-trash said:
EOM16.5, UltraFoco, S3, and similar, are intended to be TIG welded. Most tubes are shaped in some way and no lugs are available to fit the end sections. I've heard of some lugs called "Shield lugs", which are suspose to fit Dedacciai aero tubing, but these lugs are not readily available and are not easy to work with, even for a professional builder.
Bottom line is that you're not likely to see any lugged frames using any of these super-steel tubesets anytime soon.
Ed
Lots to consider
I have a Tommasini already. If I were to buy another frame, and cost were no object, it would be the Hampsten Giro '88, partially because I admire Andy himself, and the Richard Sachs lugs.
Gios Compact Pro from importer/dealer excelsports.com. Get them to order in a threaded steel fork for you, for whatever reason they only carry threadless. Frame appears to be a great value. Short top tube and steep seat angles.
Viner, Casati, Colnago Master, Merckx MX Leader - gvhbikes.com. Good prices.
Casati - These have a great reputation, get the EL/OS if they have your size. http://www.racycles.com/sd/catalog/sd_rf_casati_249036_products.htm
Marinoni - http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/, Italian born, now living in Quebec. They do their paint and chroming in house. They may not show lugged in their catalog, but they will still build it to order.
Mondonico/Torelli - see your local bike shop. Expensive.
Carrera, Ciocc, DeBernardi, Guerciotti, Moser, Pinarello, closeouts - http://www.highcaliper.com/
Cinelli Super Corsa - nice chrome and paint. A classic with standard size tubing. http://stores.ebay.com/trek-2a-Bicy...Store-4-Tires-nMore_Road-Frame_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZ1QQsclZallQQsotimedisplayZ2QQtZkm
DeRosa closeouts - www.ridecampy.com
Masi - from his son in Italy, importer seems to be a bit of a "card" - http://www.creative-web-sites.com/milano_sport/homepage.htm
US builders, there are one or two of them, some you probably have never heard of that produce stunning frames (like Chris Kvale?) www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/USA.htm
and that is just the start...
Don't forget to check out eBay.BNA_roadie said:
I have a Tommasini already. If I were to buy another frame, and cost were no object, it would be the Hampsten Giro '88, partially because I admire Andy himself, and the Richard Sachs lugs.
Gios Compact Pro from importer/dealer excelsports.com. Get them to order in a threaded steel fork for you, for whatever reason they only carry threadless. Frame appears to be a great value. Short top tube and steep seat angles.
Viner, Casati, Colnago Master, Merckx MX Leader - gvhbikes.com. Good prices.
Casati - These have a great reputation, get the EL/OS if they have your size. http://www.racycles.com/sd/catalog/sd_rf_casati_249036_products.htm
Marinoni - http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/, Italian born, now living in Quebec. They do their paint and chroming in house. They may not show lugged in their catalog, but they will still build it to order.
Mondonico/Torelli - see your local bike shop. Expensive.
Carrera, Ciocc, DeBernardi, Guerciotti, Moser, Pinarello, closeouts - http://www.highcaliper.com/
Cinelli Super Corsa - nice chrome and paint. A classic with standard size tubing. http://stores.ebay.com/trek-2a-Bicy...Store-4-Tires-nMore_Road-Frame_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZ1QQsclZallQQsotimedisplayZ2QQtZkm
DeRosa closeouts - www.ridecampy.com
Masi - from his son in Italy, importer seems to be a bit of a "card" - http://www.creative-web-sites.com/milano_sport/homepage.htm
US builders, there are one or two of them, some you probably have never heard of that produce stunning frames (like Chris Kvale?) www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/USA.htm
and that is just the start...
Actually, lugless fillet-brazing
Actually, due to the heat treatment and super thin walls of those tubes, True Temper and Colombus says that the preferred method is lugless fillet brazing. TIG is the 2nd choice, but distortion is much more a factor due to higher localized heat. The tube ends are as thin as .5mm! Lugs are not an option because of the non-round shape of each of the tubes.
Nessism said:
Actually, due to the heat treatment and super thin walls of those tubes, True Temper and Colombus says that the preferred method is lugless fillet brazing. TIG is the 2nd choice, but distortion is much more a factor due to higher localized heat. The tube ends are as thin as .5mm! Lugs are not an option because of the non-round shape of each of the tubes.
Yeah, I want one of those, too. Funny thing is I don't even want to ride it. I just want to own it.colker1 said:
Actually
Where did you learn about the recommendation to fillet braze these materials? I'm not sure this is true for Columbus anyway. Columbus's '04 catalogue give specific reference to recommended TIG and MIG welding filler rods, but no mention of fillet brazing at all.
http://www.ceeway.com/Columbus-Tubing.htm
In terms of total heat added to the tubes during joining, TIG is much lower than fillet brazing. TIG is higher temperature process, but the total amount of time needed to make the joint is much much lower, thus the lower total amount of heat.
Fillet brazing adds another risk; undercutting the tube during the fillet finishing process. TIG does not have this problem, thus TIG is better for super thin tubes.
Ed
Ricky2 said:
Where did you learn about the recommendation to fillet braze these materials? I'm not sure this is true for Columbus anyway. Columbus's '04 catalogue give specific reference to recommended TIG and MIG welding filler rods, but no mention of fillet brazing at all.
http://www.ceeway.com/Columbus-Tubing.htm
In terms of total heat added to the tubes during joining, TIG is much lower than fillet brazing. TIG is higher temperature process, but the total amount of time needed to make the joint is much much lower, thus the lower total amount of heat.
Fillet brazing adds another risk; undercutting the tube during the fillet finishing process. TIG does not have this problem, thus TIG is better for super thin tubes.
Ed
Nessism said:
Lon at Nova Cycles (US distrib fo Colombus) told me this once. Colombus 04 catalog is wrong if they are recommending MIG welding for ANY such thin steels. MIG welding is TERRIBLE choice from a frame and can you name 1 single builder in the world who MIG welds his frames? Doubt that. Not saying that TIG is not a good choice, just saying that fillet is a better choice based on what I've been told. No question about it, TIG may be lower overall heat than fillet if you take into account the total surface area that the tube is heated, but that wasn't the point. TIG has higher absolute temps and higher localized heat. Fillet has lower absolute temps even though their is a greater heat-affected zone. There are lots of US custom builders that fillet braze and recommend as such for the newer steels like S3, EOM 16.5, Ultrafoco, Spirit, etc. Don Walker (my home state TX), Ground Up Track frames in Colo., Sano, Vanilla, Kirk, Oswald, Curtlo, Desparado. The 04 Hampstens are fillet brazed S3s. And so on and so on.
There is no risk of undercutting the tube during filing excess brass in the finishing process for filets unless you are a total amateur and not careful with what you are doing. Then, of course, you could cut into the metal. If you make your living as a pro framebuilder, then obviously you know better.
MIG welded frames
As far as MIG is concern, it's not common to MIG a main triangle but some builders do MIG for dropout attachment.
Regarding the "best" joining method for these super-steel tube sets, it's one mans opinion against an others. While most tube manufacturers do not make specific requirements, it's well understood that both TIG and fillet brazing is viable. Of the two, fillet brazing requires a lot of care since undercutting is a real risk on super thin tubes. Saying that fillet brazing is "recommended" is a real stretch, I doubt Lon would get agreement to his claim from any of the major tube manufacturers.
Ed
Columbus provides information on which welding materials to use because they know many builders will be welding the tubes together. No specific reference is made to what brazing materials to use. If brazing was the "recommended" method to join the tubes, you would think they would make some reference to filler materials wouldn't you?Ricky2 said:
As far as MIG is concern, it's not common to MIG a main triangle but some builders do MIG for dropout attachment.
Regarding the "best" joining method for these super-steel tube sets, it's one mans opinion against an others. While most tube manufacturers do not make specific requirements, it's well understood that both TIG and fillet brazing is viable. Of the two, fillet brazing requires a lot of care since undercutting is a real risk on super thin tubes. Saying that fillet brazing is "recommended" is a real stretch, I doubt Lon would get agreement to his claim from any of the major tube manufacturers.
Ed
IMO it's fillet and the list of builders is endless
Fair enough. You still haven't told me 1 single builder who uses MIG for dropout construction. So, if you know of one and it can be verified by website, phone, whatever then I will eat my words. I don't believe it. No reference is made from Colombus, Deda, Reynolds as to a preferred brazing method since both are fine methods to join the tubes. However, True Temper does recommend fillet-brazing.
I'm not dogging on TIG. I'm just correcting your assertion that "EOM16.5, UltraFoco, S3, and similar, are intended to be TIG welded" which is totally untrue. I've already listed 10 builders that use those steels do so via fillet-brazing, which IMO is the preferred method of joining the new heat-treated thin steels. This is not to say that TIG is bad. Colombus may recommend certain TIG rods, but that is far from an endorsement that one is better than the other as you are implying.
As to your claim that none of the major tube manufacturers would agree with fillet being a viable, excuse me "better method" of joining, that's laughable. Like I said, no one (not me) is saying that TIG is bad. Fulvio Acquati, Deda consultant and Ital contact, whom I have personally met would agree with fillet-brazing being fine, if not the best, method of joining the heat-treated thin steels. I am in the bike industry and will be attending Interbike next month. I will personally introduce you to these two fine gentlemen if you are attending. PM me your contact info. We'll sit and talk over a beer or two over craps or poker or 21 or the roulette or whatever.
Richard
Nessism said:
Fair enough. You still haven't told me 1 single builder who uses MIG for dropout construction. So, if you know of one and it can be verified by website, phone, whatever then I will eat my words. I don't believe it. No reference is made from Colombus, Deda, Reynolds as to a preferred brazing method since both are fine methods to join the tubes. However, True Temper does recommend fillet-brazing.
I'm not dogging on TIG. I'm just correcting your assertion that "EOM16.5, UltraFoco, S3, and similar, are intended to be TIG welded" which is totally untrue. I've already listed 10 builders that use those steels do so via fillet-brazing, which IMO is the preferred method of joining the new heat-treated thin steels. This is not to say that TIG is bad. Colombus may recommend certain TIG rods, but that is far from an endorsement that one is better than the other as you are implying.
As to your claim that none of the major tube manufacturers would agree with fillet being a viable, excuse me "better method" of joining, that's laughable. Like I said, no one (not me) is saying that TIG is bad. Fulvio Acquati, Deda consultant and Ital contact, whom I have personally met would agree with fillet-brazing being fine, if not the best, method of joining the heat-treated thin steels. I am in the bike industry and will be attending Interbike next month. I will personally introduce you to these two fine gentlemen if you are attending. PM me your contact info. We'll sit and talk over a beer or two over craps or poker or 21 or the roulette or whatever.
Richard
Casati - These have a great reputation, get the EL/OS if they have your size. http://www.racycles.com/sd/catalog/sd_rf_casati_249036_products.htm
I have a custom Casati Laser, not lugged, that rides much better than my Merlin Cyrene. I want a piece of old world art, with the lugged.
I have a custom Casati Laser, not lugged, that rides much better than my Merlin Cyrene. I want a piece of old world art, with the lugged.
I bought a custom made frame from a small builder out in Los Angeles named John Waite, and he MIG'ed many a frame together. He builds mostly track frames so appearance is not a big issue for him. On the frame he made for me, he TIG'ed the main triangle but MIG'ed the dropouts - I watched him. I understand that one man is not an island, but you seem to insist that no one uses MIG and this is wrong.Ricky2 said:
I've read the framebuilders list every day for the last eight years or so. http://search.bikelist.org/query.as...=&FMMod=-1d&FMModDate=&SortBy=MsgDate[a]&Scope=framebuilders&RecordsPerPage=250
The merits of MIG welding come up as a topic every so often there and the general consensus is that MIG is not advisable for thin walled steel tubing. I agree with this. After watching John MIG dropouts though, I do believe that MIG is viable for certain applications. Also, there are LOTS of Asian framebuilding companies that use MIG these days. My understanding is that some very nice Swiss built MIG outfits are available that produce good results.
The whole issue of MIG came up because I referenced Columbus's catalogue, which lists WELDING materials to use, not brazing materials. I'm not endorsing MIG myself.
As far as preferred joining operations, I just dug out an old Columbus product catalogue and they state regarding the then new Genius tubing "Developed exclusively for TIG welding". This reference is made due to the super short butts on these tubes. Columbus has since added more tubes to the Genius family and they now state "Genius is conceived for TIG welding but different tubes are available for lug and fillet brazing too." Columbus seems to be stating that both joining methods are viable depending on the specific tube used. The tubes Columbus added to the Genius line for brazing application have more meat on the ends because of the higher total heat needed for brazing compared to TIG. You can draw your own conclusion on what this all means relative to the modern super-steel tubesets, many of which are thinner, with butts just as short, as the origonal Genius.
I would love to meet at Interbike! Sounds like fun. Not sure I can make it though. I'm a big fan of dedaccici tubing. As a garage framebuilder myself and I'm on a first name basis with Joe Bringhelli - Dedacciai's tubing distributor in the US. In fact, Joe helped teach me framebuilding when I lived in Cleveland. No doubt he knows the guys you talk of.
Ed
Nessism said:
Genius tubes, notwithstanding, are what now? Over 10 years old? And the differential butts are .7mm at the ends. Quite a difference compared to the newer steels of today with butts of around .5mm. In any case, you were right COlumbus did market that tubeset as great for TIG. This won't happen again. If it did, then they would have stated as such. As to the guy in CA who MIG welds dropouts. OK. You did find one guy. I suppose that the dropout being thicker than regular tubing, maybe you could justify MIG instead of TIG or fillet-brazing there. Very uncommon though, since your example is the 1st that I've heard of a builder doing MIG welding.
Dave Levy at Ti Cycles, who does both TIG welding and fillet-brazing, and who also builds all of the Hampsten Steel S3 frames had an option to do the construction with TIG, which would be alot faster and more economical. Or to fillet-braze which is the most time consuming to do. The choice is clear. Fillet-brazing. This speaks volumes. Here's a builder who does both and he chose fillet-brazing, even if it wasn't more economical. The ends are .5mm. You will never see any filing undercutting on any Ti Cycles frames or Hampten frames or the frames go in the dumpster before they get to a customer.
American Made Masterpiece
Has anyone forgotton about a little company in Wisconsin called Waterford. They make beautiful lugged steel bikes and custom sizing is included in the price. Not to mention the paint and finish are second to none. Just call up there and talk to Richand Schwinn direct and he can create your dream bike.
Has anyone forgotton about a little company in Wisconsin called Waterford. They make beautiful lugged steel bikes and custom sizing is included in the price. Not to mention the paint and finish are second to none. Just call up there and talk to Richand Schwinn direct and he can create your dream bike.
How about this?
Just because Dave Levy fillets S3 for Hampten doesn't mean that the process is superior. Fillet brazed frames have a mistique about them due to the exacting skill required to build them. This is just the ticket for a high end, high cost frame like a Hampsten.
Regarding the issue at hand, I retract my statement that "EOM16.5, UltraFoco, S3, and similar, are intended to be TIG welded". I do not have strict documentation to make this claim.
I do disagree with your assertion though that fillet is preferred. Further, my assertion is that fillet brazing thin walled tubesets like these requires the utmost care and that TIG is a more fault tolerant process all things considered. Far more frames are built using TIG than fillet brazing and this is not a coincidence.
Ok, none now.
Ed
Ricky2 said:
Just because Dave Levy fillets S3 for Hampten doesn't mean that the process is superior. Fillet brazed frames have a mistique about them due to the exacting skill required to build them. This is just the ticket for a high end, high cost frame like a Hampsten.
Regarding the issue at hand, I retract my statement that "EOM16.5, UltraFoco, S3, and similar, are intended to be TIG welded". I do not have strict documentation to make this claim.
I do disagree with your assertion though that fillet is preferred. Further, my assertion is that fillet brazing thin walled tubesets like these requires the utmost care and that TIG is a more fault tolerant process all things considered. Far more frames are built using TIG than fillet brazing and this is not a coincidence.
Ok, none now.
Ed
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